Your money or your grandsons

New to this forum, so it's been a bit challenging following what everyone is asking or saying, but figuring it out. I posted very late at night and actually fell asleep. Then took me a minute to figure out how to get back to this specific feed.

As to my Ex....yes, he did abandon us when my son was a baby. No money, and no home, but we were safer sleeping on the sofa of a friend from high school. He came back in and our only negative with one another is that he related a cruel situation that he perpetrated toward me to my son and sadly still thought it was funny. Trying to humiliate me to my son. My son did start to do things then as well, to me and to others. Toxic humor. It's just not funny. I did tell him (the ex) that I did not appreciate it and he had nothing to gain from it. The courts allowed him supervised visitation but he chose not to be in his son's life. I gave him every opportunity for seven years. For the last three he never saw him. I gave up trying.

As to the beginning, well you guys are asking for a book since I really don't know exactly where the beginning is. I'm honestly not sure exactly where we went wildly off track.

My son and I were always very close. The first sign of any sort of struggle was originally caused when he started drinking as a teen. We discussed it and for the most part he stopped. Then he started dating and eventually living with a girl that was into drugs and alcohol, but thankfully after a few years they split. When he dated her, she refused to allow him around me unless she was there. Didn't bother me. I just liked to have our dinner together and it was nice to see him happy....until he wasn't. I knew when he asked to join me for breakfast alone. That was gosh around 15 years ago. She apparently couldn't stand me, but honestly she didn't like anyone in his life and blocked many of us.

That is roughly about the time that I also offered him a job to work at my manufacturing company. He said no, he liked what he was doing at the time. Our relationship was pretty much the same then. Dinner every couple of weeks. Then I just babysat his dog. No wife no kids yet.

As time went by I did notice that he was drinking quite a bit again. I did not talk to him about it until he and a friend were arrested for being drunk and disorderly in public. After a night's rest in jail I took them to my beach house to sleep it off and discussed it in the morning. We did and he went to AA. No, I did not follow up or push. I thought the calming environment would help. It seemed better, but I do know that he continued to drink. I don't know how much or how often as we lived about 2 hours from one another so every visit was fairly planned and given that I rarely drink, he really doesn't drink with me.

A few years go by and he came to me and said that he was interested in the job if the offer was still open. It was and so I hired him. I made it abundantly clear that the company could not afford to pay him the same as his prior job as he was coming in at the entry level to learn my business.

We discussed the fact that it would be very hard to work for me as his boss because he was used to being the boss at his job. Not his business, but that location was his responsibility. The challenges of that situation reared their ugly head before very long...

One of my employees made a fairly big mistake. I discussed this with the employee and he became upset and said that he was quitting. I said, ok and went back to my office. My son came stomping into my office and went off on me. He told me I should go beg for the man to come back. I told him that I would not. If he didn't want to work here, no one had chains on their ankles.

More on the next post. I need a break here. See? Long story.

OceanMama -- What a perfect reply.

OK
OK, so may or may not be relevant, but I grew up with an alcoholic mother who was abusive and an elder sister that was also abusive. Both physically abusive to the point that I would sometimes not be allowed to go to school because of marks. The worst those days was bloody welts on my back. My sister used to just smack me around but I was pretty tiny back in those days and never really was one for fighting back until I had my little guy to fight for.

When I was 15 my elder sister became pregnant and in my mother's logic I was next so she kicked her out and she made arrangements for me to marry the boy next door. We'd known each other since I was 7 and while I didn't even think that way he did and since he was 19, he figured everything else out with my mom. My step dad told me straight up that he had no power to help me. He and my mom were having problems. So, within a couple of months I was married and moving to Canada. I struggle to forgive my mom at first and am thankful that we discussed everything before she died.

Tell me when you get bored or ask if you have questions.

So your son was hired for your manufacturing company, not as a caregiver.
That's important.

What was this business disagreement that took place?

To say you've had a difficult and taxing life would be an understatement JGran. I'm glad that you talked about your past with your mum before she died.

As has already been discussed your cancer, the treatment, your son losing his GF with Alzheimer's, his father being diagnosed with Alzheimer's and your son's understandable fear that he will also contract this must have contributed to him feeling unable to cope so he 'walked away'; making that 180 degree turn that's been mentioned.

This could also account for the estrangement, him not being able to cope with it all so severing contact. What doesn't make any sense to me though, or you I'm sure, is a year after estranging you, making contact to say if you don't do what he wants you'll never see your GC again.

Well, part of the reason I came on this forum is to figure it out. I believe that we all have our perspective. I have asked him to explain his and he has refused to date. So, here I am trying to figure it out. While I have to display my life to strangers, but who else could be less personally involved in my life but you all? So, while some of you may want it to be his fault and some will want it to be my fault, I'm going with I think we've both made mistakes. His view I can't yet see. That is kind of what you guys are here for...just to be honest. That is why I've stated...ask away....I have no reason to lie as I want to resolve this or I wouldn't be here. I'm not trying to get sympathy or sound like some kind of hero here. I'm really trying to see what I don't see....yet. As a mother, sure I made a mistake here or there, but he always said that I was a really good parent, until his father came back into his life...then after a while his attitude changed. In the beginning, he said that he was thankful he didn't get raised in that household. Apparently, the second wife had addiction issues and the second son was addicted by the age of 12. Sadly, he died of a drug overdose a few months after my son's wedding. He was the best man. The saddest part of that was that his original best man died the same month one year earlier due to alcohol and scuba diving not being a healthy combination. My baby sister didn't make it to the wedding because she ended up in the emergency room due to a brain tumor. Then just before his brother died my 6 year old niece ended up in the ER also with a brain tumor.

We all make mistakes JGran. It isn't about apportioning blame it's about trying to understand how things can change so dramatically and in some cases, so tragically.

Jgran, I'm not looking to apportion blame to either you or your son. I do try to be objective. :-) Like you said, you've made mistakes, but what parent hasn't?

You've introduced a couple of new elements in your last post. First, you've hinted at what could possibly be a divisive influence from your son's father. That could be pertinent.

Also, from what you are describing, your son has had a lot of loss, pain and stressors to deal with himself. I know that is not what you wanted for your son. Don't we all want our children to have things easier than we did? I know I always wanted that for my children but I have since learned, we can't protect them from life. Stuff happens. Maybe he just can't handle anymore right now and is taking care of himself emotionally and mentally?

None of that explains the apparently sudden demand for the house, but your son definitely has his own difficult story here.

i have thought of a possible reason for the sudden change in behaviour, by the "kids" ! ,
but it is unpleasant, and may be way off the mark.
anyway, i wish you well OP.
some people on here are giving you a hard time, and making assertions that are meant to be logical, but glaringly are not. they are like saying, a catholic priest cannot have sexually abused a child because it states clearly in the catechism that is not allowed, and every priest knows his catechism, therefore you are lying to say that happened, or else you misheard/ it is misreported, because it is against the tenets of his religion.
never mind.
i had assumed you and your son were older, but now seeing that you married very young, maybe your son is almost 40 ?
await next instalment eagerly.
all the best.

Ok, more clarification. My son originally was hired to work for the manufacturing job. He decided he hated it and I was 50 and ready to retire. So, we both had been talking about doing the flipping full time. I could finance it and he would be the on site manager dealing with the sub trades since I've never liked that part and he loves it. I like the paperwork and the design part...ok...and the shopping part but we both did that part. I started flipping way early after graduating. I had also worked for some successful RE people (Thank God, not Trump, but one of his former friends). So, I sold the shop and equipment and we started our first flip not long after that. He was loving it and we were a few months into the one when I noticed I just struggled to do anything. This eventually led to my diagnosis. Yes, scary for both of us. The worst thing for my eldest grandson is that I was diagnosed three days before his biological father's mother died from cancer. They were very close and she was a very loving and kind woman from the short time that I knew her. So, we all tried to make sure that he was aware that I was fighting and not going to just let it take me. This past January he was supposed to be starting piano lessons at my house. He was really looking forward to it, but they won't allow him to come over. We have a good relationship. We like a lot of the same things and I miss him terribly.

So your last post gives me the impression that your son was and reasonably expected to be an equal partner in your property ventures. But you talk about them as your properties. Maybe I'm misinterpreting or maybe this is starting to get somewhere. Could your son feel like he was equal but then you pushed him out and didn't give him due compensation? Hence he demanded the particular property to bridge that gap. And maybe said you couldn't see your grandsons because he wanted to protect them from what he sees as how he was treated?

Sorry if I'm off base, just trying to see through your son's eyes based on what you are giving us.

Pity we can't edit posts. To be more clear, it sounds like a 'your finance it, I manage it, we're contributing equally, just in different ways' kind of arrangement.

I take it there was no formal contract spelling out the arrangement and expectations?

Yes, he had quite a lot at the same time hit. I should also say that his father had to have open heart surgery due to his ??3rd?? heart attack. My son is 39 and I am 56. Yes, I had him exactly one year and six days after marrying.

I get that it was emotionally a struggle, but I had no control over my diagnosis and the Flip house WAS his job. He chose to only go to the job site one day a week and he didn't have to spend a great deal of time here, so time wasn't really his issue. He had three full days at home with his wife and kids and would make calls in the morning as well as on-line shopping for sinks, etc. We often said that we were lucky that we closed the business when we did because flipping allowed us a ton of flexible time to do what we want when we want. That part was low stress, but I do know that knowing some of the details was a struggle for him because he would have to come to me to find out. Sometimes the guys on site would not be honest with him and then I'd have to explain and I'm sure (knowing him) he felt like it was a failure or something. Maybe he felt like he didn't want to continue to let me down.....I just don't know.

It's a tough one JGran. Unfortunately it's sounding like maybe mixing business and family hasn't worked out the best for all concerned. I'm out of ideas, and I'm not saying I'm right, just throwing out some thoughts for you to consider. I hope you are able to heal this.

Good catch OceanMama. Yes, we made sure everything was clear from the beginning. The properties I mention are all properties that I bought far prior to our agreement. Only the one he was working on actually fell into our agreement. I bought the property he lives in shortly after he began working at the manufacturing company. That was several years before our agreement. Yes, over the years even before he worked for me he often referred to everything as "Ours"...to which I would say, "We're not married! What's mine is not automatically yours." I didn't say it every time as it would have been very embarrassing at times for him, but we did discuss it. We did discuss his being the Trustee at first, but he displayed signs of financial mismanagement on more than one occasion and his wife isn't good with finances. She always has her cards maxed and they have come to me several times over the years to get them out of sticky situations. As well, I've always made it clear that I'd rather they ask me for help rather than having a car accident because you can't afford new tires or something. When I decided that my little sister would be a better choice as Trustee, I advised him of it as it was both my legal and moral responsibility to let him know. This was a couple of years ago. 2 to 2 1/2 ish???

Did he feel he was my equal...I hope so in the business. The intention was for him to eventually take over and do that on his own as I aged and as his step son was old enough to assist. He even brought him on site and got him involved a couple of times in what happens on a job site. I loved that even my grandson was interested in it.

We all are given challenges in life. I've always stepped away from mine trying to see the lessons. The abuse, the alcoholics around me, the drug addicts around me, the death around me, divorce, etc. It's all life's lessons. If life was never a challenge it would be no lesson at all.

and yes...Smileless2012, I don't really understand the demand at all. When he quit, I didn't say, "Rents due on the first!" I even hoped that he would job search and see that it wasn't all that out there....then the pandemic hit. That didn't help. Even now, he's only working part time. I'm pretty sure she isn't working. I honestly don't know how they are making ends meet, but I don't ask. Maybe his father is helping him, but I really doubt it because I know his father's wife really hopes my son would just disappear. She still worries that I want my ex back. Its been more than 35 years....why would I want him? I left him for a reason. My son had hoped for a short time, but I think something his father said after I made it clear that he should not lose his current wife for me as I moved on long ago. I don't know. See anything there????

Have you directly asked your son why he feels he should have the property? Your first post even says "I thought it was because'. So you don't seem to know? Has he ever given you reason he feels so strongly about that?

OceanMama; He keeps saying that we will discuss it when....then there are various reasons. First he needed some time. Then it was because I was so sick. Then it was when he found a job.. it just keeps getting delayed and now we are a year away plus.

I do have a couple of friends that know both of us. They are completely stumped as to how everything happened so suddenly and how excited he seemed to be about what we were doing only a couple of months prior. They think it is his wife. I really don't know. I mean, I'm always there for them and even when she was going in to have the baby I arranged for the house to be thoroughly cleaned before she went home. Prepared meals for them to reheat. I try to do little thoughtful things whenever I can. I never force it on them, I always ask if it's ok, but at the same time it absolutely is both of them that demanded I not help anyone from her family.

Well, communication takes two so if he won't, that is a hard place to be in. If he thinks he has a valid claim and won't discuss it, that's on him, not you.

jgran, Obviously you know your state better than I do, but you were leaving one grandson a condo, and the other is getting the house that the family lives in now, is that correct?

I would be very concerned for that younger grandson being in a position of being a landlord to his father. He is not going to get the enjoyment of living in that house as an adult until his parents pass away. If you can, I would probably gift him a different property so that he gets to be the master of his own domain the same as his older brother.

Your state was meant to be your estate

jgran I'm not very well at all and it's the middle of the night here so forgive me if this doesn't come across as well as intended.

I had a traumatic childhood too and it's quite easy to think that, the opposite of abuse and neglect is the right way to parent. However the opposite of abuse and neglect is over protective, controlling and enmeshed.

You have had trauma, your son has also had some trauma.

You have played many roles in his life. First Mum to a minor child, then mum to an adult. You have been the boss to his employee then a venture together where you have remained in charge.

The two of you have never been as equals. Never had just an adult to adult relationship. You have always been "above" him on some level calling the shots.

You became desperately ill and your son who was used to you always having a measure of power couldn't then cope with your extra needs on top.

Now I don't think it is right that he demand money/property from you in exchange for a relationship. But I wonder if you look underneath that, your son actually wants some autonomy back. I also feel he expected more out of your flipping business as your son and despite you doing all the paper work and probably investing all the money... That is generally how a family business would work.

I think there is a possibility your son is tired of always being the "kid" and I only use that word to demonstate to you that perhaps you haven't allowed him to be an adult. You have strong opinions about his choices. You have come to his rescue too often. You haven't taught him responsibility by giving him any or allowing him to make and fix his own mistakes.

I think that will have to change for this to be rectified.

I also think counselling or therapy of some kind would really benefit you.

Given that my youngest is 5 and his father and mother are forty. The estate will be managed by my little sister so he will not be their landlord until they are 60 and he is 25. That is the age that the estate will be scheduled to transfer. He is legally able to delay that if he wishes to. So, I've already thought that one ahead. The home I live in now is more likely where he will choose to live or in his brother's condo as the access to higher education once he graduates...or, for that matter he may choose to study away from home. We are nowhere near there yet. I do appreciate you pointing that out though given that most may not have thought of it.
My little sister is a wise one, so if I'm not here to make that decision, I'm sure she will. I am also going to be giving my baby sister's son and daughter a property in the same way. They are 13 and 16. They are all set for higher education. That is my biggest goal is to get a higher education. I believe that higher education is very important and it should not be a weight around your ankle for years into your early work years. I am currently putting one of my elder sister's sons through school for his BA. Her second son is thinking about going back to school, but has not yet decided. He just turns 19 in a few days and is a new father so he is struggling with what to do. I was the only one that wanted a higher education except my baby sister. My mother didn't want me to go to school. She only insisted that I be good at cleaning and know how to cook, so my Step-dad taught me to cook.

Starblaze, I'm sorry you are not feeling well. Yes, I've been on the computer too long and have a number of things to get done before bed time. Autonomy? Maybe. Yes, I've caught them from falling and I've been there for much of it...said no at times which has been a source of anger for him in the past. No one likes No. Normally, he recognizes if he has been upset and has apologized, but not this time so obviously what he is upset about is bigger, but I can't do anything about that if he won't tell me what it is that I've done.