Grandparent rights

Exactly Smileless - some adult children recognise the significance of an existing relationship between their children and grandparents. Pick up and collections can be civil if not warm and loving. A bit like the way in which some separated parents are able to put the needs of the children first, rather than involve them in a war.

I think the difference is that in these more positive cases the grandchildren already have a relationship with their grandparents.

I think it would be very unusual for an estranged daughter or son to want their new offspring to develop a relationship with the grandparents from essentially nothing.

Some gc have a relationship with the gp despite the estrangement because the parents allow it to happen.

It has nothing to do with GPR at all.

Some gc have a relationship with the gp despite the estrangement because the parents allow it to happen

It has nothing to do with GPR at all

I understand your point Hithere as if the parents did not allow it, putting their own issues aside for the sake of their children, then it would not happen.

However in order for it to happen, the GPs also have to put their own issues with the parents aside for the sake of the GC ...so it does have something to do with them as well...they also make choices within what the parents decide to allow!

We estranged from both sets of parents 20 years ago. We’d tried on and off before that....for the children. Didn’t work. We told our children they were welcome to see their grandparents, when old enough todo it independently. They never did, they saw all the problems, and took in more than I ever dreamt they would. No....grandparents have no rights.....thank goodness.

Yes of course Notspaghetti there needs to have been a relationship between the children and their GP's prior to an estrangement.

We never expected to see our second GC because we were estranged by our son before he was born. That said, we never expected to be prevented from seeing his older brother, especially as we had an email from our ES telling us they'd never stop us from seeing him, because they knew how much we loved them.

It's good that you tried Toadinthehole even though it didn't work out and that you ultimately left the decision to your children when they were old enough.

Aww, bless you Smileless, it’s a shame we can’t mix and match. Put grandparents who care, and want to sort things out, with children and grandchildren who want the same. I would have adopted you....depending on how old you are of course ?

Aww thanks Toadinthehole. I'll be 60 this year; still interested in adopting me?

Every situation is different really isn't it.
I might not get on with someone my child does. I'd have to weigh up if that relationship is positive for my child because it's my responsibility.
If my relationship was upsetting I might not trust that a relationship with my child wouldn't become upsetting for them.
I do agree with it being said that building relationships works both ways but I think if one person isn't happy and walks away it is always going to be up to the person who wants these relationships to find a way. I don't think people have to have relationships with anyone. My mum doesn't want one with me and I accept it.
Sometimes it ends up in court and sometimes the courts decide the parents are wrong but I think it's hard to even get to court.
Grandparents would be going for the same rights as an absent parent and absent parents pay maintenance. So it makes sense to me.
I never put my children in a situation where they would be upset by me not having a relationship with mum and she doesn't want a relationship with me even though I tried to come to an understanding. I'm the one who my children would listen to. So if she had been positive I would have told my boys that and they might have spoken to her or at least been polite. They don't like her because of her not because of me.

GP's who go to court for contact with their GC are not "going for the same rights as an absent parent". Custody for parents is nothing like contact for GP's.

A contact order doesn't give GP's any legal rights over their GC. It doesn't entitle them to have a say where the children live, what school they attend or what medical treatment they should or shouldn't receive. It's a ridiculous comparison.

The GP's I know regardless of whether they have contact or don't, simply want to have a relationship with their GC. To be able to spend some time with them, buy them gifts for their birthdays and at Christmas which will be received, and be a part of their lives.

How can you "find a way" with someone who refuses to even talk to you?

Being a responsible parent and deciding whether a relationship your children are having is in their best interests is one thing. Preventing children from continuing the relationship they have with their GP's because of their own issues, which have nothing to do with the relationship their children have with their GP's is a different thing entirely.

Parents not allowing their children to have relationships with GPs is not selfish in these estranged situations. AC estranged from their parents have a reason even if that reason isn’t acknowledged by their parents. They are safe guarding their own children from the very behavior that led them to cut ties.

Not always Sparklers. There are numerous examples of parents whose once close and loving relationship with their AC has been damaged by the AC's partner.

Of course some GP's not being allowed to see their GC is to "safe guard" the children but as I demonstrated earlier, not every EAC stops the relationship their children have developed with their GP's because they no longer want a relationship with their parent(s).

Had that particular father estranged his own father due to his childhood experiences and because he was a potentially damaging adult in his child's life, he wouldn't have allowed the relationship with his child to continue would he.

It's reasonable to assume in this particular case that the father would have regarded not enabling his child to see the GF he loves, as a selfish act.

I have been estranged from my parents for 20 years, I always gave my DC the option to see them if they wanted to and they sometimes went with their aunt to see them. Once my DS got to 11 he asked not to go again and when DD was 20 she stopped any regular contact. She will visit at Christmas to drop off presents but that is all. I never forced my views on them and as a GP now so glad I left that decision to my children as I would be lost without my DGS.

Similar story here too Scentia; not seen my parents for over 20 years, by my choice. But I knew that I couldn't make that decision on behalf of, my then, teenage DC and so always made it clear that I would take them to see their GPs, and pick them up again afterwards. They only went twice and then refused to go again. To this day, I've never asked them why they made that decision; I just respected it.

Aww, nearly the same as me Smileless, I’m 62 this year.... no it wouldn’t have worked would it?!!

No you're right Toadinthehole but I'll always appreciate the thought.

If a small child is stopped or not able to go and see their beloved GP as they are too small to go alone, by the time they are old enough, the GP would by that time be strangers, so therefore the child wouldn't choose to visit.

The golden time between GP &GC is from birth to about 12yrs, after which youngsters go their own way, off with their friends on adventures, GP now seem boring, all quite normal. They still love their GP, but now friends come first.

As the GC grows into adulthood, they may delve into genealogy and then become interested in their family history & therefore their GP, by which time the GP are probably gone. Also if a child has grown up knowing there is animosity between their parents and GP it would naturally put them off visiting the GP. Until they learn otherwise.

So a parent saying to the child go and see nanny & granddad if you want isn't quite as it seems/sounds, is it.

Dee Dee, from experience I would say no, they make it so difficult and turn the children against you. I would try to speak with the parents and see if they are willing for them to have contact, loving parents should want what’s best for their children, to be happy and know and how important grandparents are. If they make it clear they will not allow it, you can save yourself years of anguish by accepting it, send
loving messages and cards and presents, if they are returned
open bank accounts and put cash in there for when they are older. Don’t ruin your life waiting for a miracle, if it happens well and good. Good luck.

Endorse everything Smileless has said.

If it’s my post you’re referring to Yogagirl, can I just reiterate that our children’s grandparents did see them from birth and in their early years, on and off. It was so difficult to see them, because they were so difficult. My husband eventually would sink into a depression around his mum, and once our older two children noticed this, we called it a day. Children are not as oblivious to things as we might think. The number of things even my youngest two picked up on, was staggering, when you consider they were pre school at the time. We made the choice to cut off, with the hope our children would see their grandparents once independent. We had to choose between them being damaged by carrying on as we were....or not seeing them at all. We took a risk, and it paid off. None of my four kids wanted to pursue a relationship. That saw the problems for themselves. We learnt how not to behave with our adult children, and we’ve told them if we overstep the mark....to tell us. We all have a great relationship now....and I have the mistakes made by our parents to thank for that.

That's a good point Yogagirl, even when older GC are going to have been swayed by their parents view of their GP's and may not feel inclined to seek them out. If and when they do, as you say the GP's may no longer be around so they'll never have had the opportunity to get to know them or anything about them.

Sparkling it's terrible when parents turn their children against their GP's. Thank goodness we were never given the opportunity to get to know our GC. Our loss is great but could have been so much worse.

That's a parents job to decide who their children see and where they go until they are old enough to have that responsibility. That doesn't make them bad parents if they decide if they can't have a good relationship with someone it would be better for the family to stay away.
If I took my boys to my mum when they were younger, it would be stressful for them and me. If it was court ordered and they had no choice that would cause a lot of stress.
Mum would need to make things right with me to have a chance with them. She doesn't want a relationship with me and I don't want one with her if she doesn't change and no child should be stuck in between that.
Adults need to sort it out, not go to war over children.

"Adults need to sort it out, not go to war over children" exactly Armadillo. Not all situations are like yours, some EP's and EGP's do want a relationship with their AC; it's their AC who doesn't want a relationship with them.

Where there's an established relationship between children and their GP's, which presumably would not be the case if there was the remotest possibility that the children would be at risk by spending time with their GP's, it's wrong to suddenly deprive those children of their GP's.

I have seen numerous examples here on GN where the threat of not being allowed to see GC has been implied or actually stated if the parents of those children don't get what they want, when they want it. Childcare and financial assistance being the two main criteria and GP's walking on egg shells for fear of doing or saying the wrong thing and being stopped from seeing their GC.

I agree that "no child should be stuck in between" and in the examples I've given, it's the parents not the GP's who are at fault.

Waiting to be asked may be the answer. The GC may ask when they become to the correct age.