Grandparent rights

Waiting to be asked may be the answer. The GC may ask when they become to the correct age.

Precisely Norah; exactly this. As Smileless 2012 rightly points out, every situation is different and one can't apply their own experiences and circumstances as a blanket solution for everybody else. In my own, personal experience, I decided to cut contact with my family when my DC were in their early teens. Up until then, despite there having been a long standing fraught relationship between me and my family, I was emotionally mature enough not to involve my DC in that and I continued to enable and encourage contact between them. It was only when DC reached 16 that they made their own, independent decision not to continue to see them. They didn't discuss with me how they had reached that decision, or what their reasons were but I accepted it. I have no right to involve my DC in conflict that has nothing to do with them and that they had no part of.

Norah, indeed waiting until they are grown is what lists of us have to do, you miss all the lovely stages in their life and don’t make a bond together, it’s different when they turn up at about 16 and want to get to know you, however well you get on, you can’t make up for lost years, when the mother gets to know they are seeing you, within minutes of arrival there’s an urgent phone call on their mobile to go back home, granddaughter says she’s like it with everyone, but still goes and you smile and say that’s ok, whenever you get the time. It’s heartbreaking.

"I have no right to involve my DC in conflict that has nothing to do with them and that they had no part of" such wise words Chewbacca and just think of all the heartache that could be spared if others felt and behaved as you did.

That must be so hard Sparkling but how wonderful that you see your GD.

I don't think it matters who is at fault really.
If someone takes you to court though to argue against your decisions I don't think it's likely they get forgiven in the future.
Is going against your child's decisions and fighting to see grandchildren more important than finding ways to have a relationship with a child.
I don't see how that would ever make things stable in the long term for any of those relationships with gtandchildren and it would be quite rare for it to have a happy ending.
It makes sense to me that the law doesn't give grandparents rights its a can of worms in the US where they do exist in a lot of states.

Who mentioned taking anyone to court?

I would think that for those GP's who do take the court route, they already know that their relationship with their AC is unlikely to be reconciled, so in that regard they have nothing to lose.

It's always pointed out to those who post on GN because they're considering this option, that it could well be 'the final nail in the coffin' so to speak. It's very much a personal decision and while we would never have done so, I understand why there are GP's who decide to try and take their case to court.

I agree that it doesn't necessarily make for a stable relationship in the long term but if more parents took the view that Chewbacca did, none of this would be necessary.

I think it does matter who is at fault. It may not matter to some parents at the time, but may well do in the future when their children want to know why they were stopped from seeing their GP's, especially if they come to realise that it wasn't their GP's who were at fault.



You can't have a relationship with anyone who doesn't want a relationship with you

oops posted too soon. You can't have a relationship with anyone who doesn't want a relationship with you. That's what estrangement is all about isn't it, not having a relationship, but should the parents decision not to have a relationship with their parents, be foisted onto their children?

Should it be foisted on the children? No, I don't believe it should. If the adults are unable to conduct an amicable relationship then by all means stop, or reduce, contact. But any adult who has the emotional maturity and stability to be able to separate their own feelings of anger or disconnect with their family, can also recognise that, unless extreme circumstances are at play, they shouldn't be passing down their conflict to the next generation. Obviously there will be certain circumstances where this is not applicable.

Good post Chewbacca.

But any adult who has the emotional maturity and stability to be able to separate their own feelings of anger or disconnect with their family, can also recognise that, unless extreme circumstances are at play, they shouldn't be passing down their conflict to the next generation

Spot on Chewbacca .

Yes to Chewbacca's post at 20.01 today. Emotional maturity and intelligence are key to healthy relationships.
Most families muddle through all kinds of life's difficulties, without relationships totally breaking down. Estrangement is very difficult to recover from, to rebuild trust. Sometimes people make the least worst, most healthy decision for them, which is to stop trying to mend something that's irreparably broken.

Smileless

Allowing a child to have a relationship with a GP doesn't always mean the GP is a safe person.

GFIL did things to his daughter that should have resulted in criminal prosecution, and he should NEVER have been allowed to have a relationship with his GC, particularly the girls. However, FIL basically thought the sun rose and set on his father, and insisted on taking the children over. MIL was, at the time, rather a passive person and didn't feel she could say no, although she did ensure that my SIL was never left alone with GFIL.

Being abused as a child can cause a person to believe that abuse is normal and acceptable. Some adults are still too much in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) to recognize that their parents aren't safe.

Allowing a child to have a relationship with a GP doesn't always mean the GP is a safe person.

I don't think that Smileless2012, or anyone else for that matter, has suggested that it was always in a child's best interest agnurse? As was confirmed upthread Obviously there will be certain circumstances where this is not applicable and child abuse would quite obviously be one of those circumstances.

Well in the case you've posted about agnurse FIL should never have allowed his father to have contact with his GC. It appears that MIL was more responsible than he was by at least ensuring that your SIL was never left alone with him.

I would have never allowed our sons to have contact with a known abuser regardless of that abusers position in the family.

It's constantly being stated on this forum that where a GP is known to be an abuser it's perfectly understandable and right, that they don't have contact with their GC. It is therefore constantly being stated that it isn't always in a child's best interest to have a relationship with their GP's.

Parents who are unable to "recognise that their parents aren't safe" are not being discussed here. Where that is the case, they wont have estranged themselves from their parents, their children's GP's.

I want to first clear up the topic of Grandparents Rights in the US. It seems that it is believed that GP have them here. They really dont. With the exception of New York State, there are very specific reasons when a grandparent can sue for rights. That is mostly in the case of death of thier child (the parent) , divorce or the grandparent shows that they have a pre-existing relationship with the grandchild. And that pre-existing relationship has to be substantial like the grandparents raised the child for a period of time. The burdon of proof is on the grandparent. It is a very expensive and long process, as I am sure it is in the UK as well.

If you want to research more, it lists state by state here: www.considerable.com/life/family/grandparent-rights-united-states/

As you know, I am estranged from my mother and she has no contact with my children. She was emotionally abuse and did a lot of damage to my kids. You know what is funny though? No one believes she is an abuser. She puts on a really great face. She is just the nicest most kind person there is. She loves to tell everyone how her evil EAC is keeping her from a relationship with thier "family".

I TRIED to keep our issues away from the kids so they could have a relationship with her. She looked me right in the eye and told me that she would NEVER talk to my kids about our issues. Then she turned around while my kids were spending the night and tried to alienate my kids from me. My youngest ended up suicidal and we are now, 3 years later, still dealing with the effects of this emotional abuse.

And yea, I know, not all GP are estranged because they are abusive. So no need to remind me of that. I know all of your viewpoints.

My opinion is now that if my parent makes no attempt to have at the very least a civil relationship with me, they dont get to have a relationship with my children until such time my children are adults and can choose themselves.

I would never encourage anyone to estrange, however if an EAC is experiencing problems in thier relationship with the GP, I would encourage them to keep detailed records of what those issues are with proof, because there usually is in this day and age, in case estrangement happens. If my mother ever tried to obtain grandparents rights, I would pull out the big guns and show the world exactly who she is. Luckily in the US, and especially the state i live in, there is really no such thing as grandparents rights.

@freedomfromthepast
Please don't assume that there aren't grandparent rights in the US. I'm in a group with parents that are forced to send their kids to grandparents (court orders). I have seen many current court orders. While there may be those reasons listed in the law, it just isn't so. Anywhere where the law says that "in the best interests of the child" can result in court orders. Members of this group have gone to prison for contempt and not following orders. Washington and Florida are two states that have deemed grandparent rights unconstitutional.

There are dozens of parents in this group that have to hand their children over every other weekend or once a month. One lady has to fly her children across the country several times a year. The grandmother had the children December 26th to January 6th, she tried to not return them by coughing all over airport staff and hiding a knife on one of the grandchildren. She did get her kids back in the end. The grandmother didn't even spend the time with the kids, she shipped them off to another family member (even though it was against the court order).

There are numerous families in the group that have to hand their children over to grandparents that deny allergies exist, refuse medications and of course ones that are abusive and have hit the parents. One parent has received death threats from their mother, and they are currently in court for visitation. The GAL said the woman was unstable and ruled against her and now the grandparent is filing a motion to dismiss the GAL.

It's scary but it happens.

I do hope the saying that where America goes, England follows isn't the case with so called 'grandparents rights'. The US is still more litigious than the UK and the Children Act is clear about who has rights, who has responsibilities.

For the record from page 2; I adored my youngest daughter, as well as my GC. I know Smileless adored her son too. Both of us were cut out by our AC partner, definitely due to jealousy from my D husband [GD stepdad] and I suspect the same reason from S son's wife.

QuoteChewbacca Sun 10-Jan-21 17:25:24

very commendable chewbacca

QuoteSparkling Sun 10-Jan-21 17:26:21

Quite Sparling

QuoteChewbacca Sun 10-Jan-21 20:01:33

Agree Chewbecca

QuoteIronflower Mon 11-Jan-21 06:09:35

Where in Gods name do you get these fantastical stories from Ironflower you've posted them on the estrangement threads many times now, so most of us have already read them!

If there are good parents here that lost children unfairly and children here who would love to have good parents but didn't, this should be a good place to look after each other and listen to each other.

Thanks for the information freedomfromthepast it does appear that the USA and the UK are very similar in their approach to GP's seeking to maintain their relationship with their GC when all else fails, through the courts.

I completely understand why you no longer allow your children to see your mum. I think keeping a record of anything pertinent is also a good idea and something that GP's fearing the loss of their GC could also consider.

I'm staggered Ironflower that in the USA GP's who physically abused their own children are given the courts permission for contact. I can only think that the accusations of abuse weren't believed as surely if there was irrefutable evidence to substantiate the claim, contact would never have been given.

Presumably the GM who tried to delay returning her GC by "coughing all over airport staff and hiding a knife on one of the grandchildren" has had her contact order rescinded.

The major upheaval for all concerned where children have to go great distances to see their GP's as ordered by the courts, may have been at the very least alleviated, had the P's and GP's reached an amicable arrangement and the courts had not been involved.

I do remember seeing a post here on GN from an American poster about P's moving to a different state to prevent the GP/GC relationship. Perhaps not such a good idea if children as in your post, are having to fly "across the country several times a year".

There are "good parents here that lost children unfairly and children here who would love to have good parents but didn't" Armadillo, and for the most part this estrangement forum is "a good place to look after each other and listen to each other". Estrangement is an emotive and painful subject, especially for those of us with personal experience, whether you are the parent whose been estranged, or the adult child who has done the estranging.

I did estrange. I know you think my mum cut me off and I should leave her alone but she just said she doesn't want a relationship with me because i won't go back and apologise for estranging and make her look innocent. She's given up on guilting me into that. She never loved me, if she did she wouldn't have been abusive to me. I estranged her and she always contacts me. That was the first time I answered and that's what she said.