Having a weak moment

So what are you saying Armadillo? Are you saying that if someone's AC ends up in a relationship with an emotionally abusive, controlling and manipulative partner it's the fault of the parents, because there was a pattern of that behaviour in the AC's family or the parents didn't sufficiently prepare their AC for that danger?

If heaven forbid your AC ends up in a coercive relationship and they estrange you, will you ultimately take responsibility for that and regard it as being your fault because you failed as a parent?

That must be very difficult to negotiate day after day Sara. I can understand you feeling both annoyed and worried. It must be so hard trying to appease her sensitivity while not enabling her over reaction to certain situations.

Pretending not to notice seems like a good coping mechanism in some circumstances but do you ever comment? I was thinking about her reaction to her sister having 3 nights in Cornwall while she was enjoying a wonderful 3 week holiday in Florida.

You say "it caused a massive row" and I was wondering how you reacted too and coped with that.

Just seen your post @ 9.35 and you made some interesting points that resonated.

Our ES was also a bit of a brooder and 'grievance collector' (love that phrase). His friends often described him as a 'glass half kind if a guy'. He would sulked with friends and his brother but never with us. Well he'd try but I'd always get him to smile in a couple of minutes, in spite of himself.

He was always willing and able to talk about anything and everything and a hard worker, and although he would often need encouragement to do so, was always able to stand up for himself when necessary.

He would always measure his own 'success' against what he perceived to be success on other people's lives, and I often told him that the big house, fancy car and holidays abroad weren't necessarily an indicator of success; they could be indicators of debt!!

oops some errors there kind of a guy and he would sulk, not sulked.

There are places where estrangement is never heard of and whole families where there is no estrangement so it can't be anyone.

But that doesn't mean that something can't happen that introduces a risk of or actual estrangement to those families

I think it's patterns in families or ways we don't prepare our children for dangers

A pattern has to start somewhere. And dangers can be missed, even when prepared ...it depends on the dynamics and nature of the danger. For example, people find themselves in an abusive relationship ...they didn't see any dangers because none were there to be identified in that loving, caring, person that they thought they knew ...until they realised they didn't know them as gradually and insidiously things changed! Or depending on the style of abuse, that person may have been so emotionally abused they can't see the abuse for what it is! And part of that abuse might well result in estrangement from family/friends etc. In fact that is a recognised factor in abusive relationships!

Nell
Don’t worry, I often think the same myself, I suppose I’m frightened that if I encouraged her to talk about it, the flood gates would open, and things may be said, that couldn’t be taken back.

It's a very difficult situation Sara.

"they didn't see any dangers because none were there to be identified in that loving, caring, person they they thought they knew ... until the realised they didn't know them as gradually and insidiously things changed" so well put Madgran and sums up our relationship with our ES's wife perfectly.

Smileless
My ever patient husband calmed things down, but she did say some quite hurtful things.
The thing is, she’s done everything right, worked hard at school, university, marriage, lovely home, children, her sister, has undoubtedly made a lot of mistakes, but is a very good mum, and works hard, we help out with the children, but we would do exactly the same for her if she didn’t live 200 miles away. We have made dozens of journeys over the years for school plays, carol concerts, hockey matches, but none of that is taken into account.
Don’t misunderstand me, she is a lovely funny girl, until lockdown we all spent lots of time together, and this year all being well, we are all having a big family holiday.
But we definitely walk on eggshells.

Smiless
“only child syndrome and l don’t share”
So that once future dil let you know in advance that you were in time going to be challenged! It was deliberately done by her.
I think you know already that I have this fear because of my experience from the day my son and his gf (now fiancé) moved into their own house together and other behaviour.
How long did it take your Ed wife to exclude you from the day of the engagement?
That is if it’s not too painful for you to say.
Did you realise at the time it was a warning of things to come?

Es wife

From that night onward we got on really well Nicegranny. She would pop round for coffee on her own. Her and I went shopping together for her shoes for their wedding day. She told me she loved me and wished I'd been her mum!!

Her relationship with her parents was difficult and she fell out with them before the wedding, so they decided to get married abroad so they wouldn't be there.

I talked to her about this, asked if she was sure as she may regret it when the time comes but she was adamant so, that's what they did and the only guests there were myself and
Mr. S.

That's how it was, it was great or at least that's how we thought it was, until she became pregnant. There were so many 'red flags' looking back but I still thought we had a good relationship. It was small, silly things to begin with which got worse once our GC was born. Within 11 months of him being born, we were out.

So, from that night I'd say it took about 3.5 years. I thought it was an odd thing to say and that there was a degree of seriousness and intent about it, but we had such a wonderful relationship with our son, it never entered my head that anything or anyone could ever destroy what we had.

Another term I've heard for a grievance collector is gunnysacking. I love this term because of the mental image. Basically, gunnysacking is when you fill your metaphorical gunnysack with all of your grievances and then when there is a disagreement, you open the gunnysack and spew them all out.

Well despite the need for egg shell walking Sara which can't be easy, it does sound as if you have a great D there to be proud of.

"My ever patient husband" is good at calming things down too; aren't we lucky.

Smileless
Thankyou, I know she can be tricky, but we just have tread carefully, I know that for you and so many others, things are so much worse.

I don't get why people put words in your mouth instead of just asking a question.
We can't protect from dangers we don't know can we but there is more education now because we have the Internet and we have laws about domestic violence and things. I didn't know any red flags growing up and if bad things happened people didn't talk about it like they do now like Me too.
That's really stressful as I didn't say anything unkind to anyone and I wouldn't do that.

Theres another question and if I get estranged I wouldn't think it wasn't my fault which isn't the same but I don't know how to say what I mean.

Sometimes people wont ask a question because they don't want to hear the answer.

Growing up with abuse is different because as a child, that is your 'normal', it's usually only when you're older that you realise there was nothing normal about it at all.

Adults, just like children can be and are groomed by their abuser. Over a period of time they're alienated from family and friends, anyone who may be able to see what's really going on and alert the victim.

It's an often impossible situation for parents. When they can see that something isn't quite right what can they do, especially if their AC is married and there are children involved?

Adults, just like children can be and are groomed by their abuser. Over a period of time they're alienated from family and friends, anyone who may be able to see what's really going on and alert the victim.

It's an impossible situation for parents.When they can see that something isn't right what can they do, especially if their AC is married and there are children involved?

A very good description of the issues Smileless

Adults, just like children can be and are groomed by their abuser.

And it's so common that a whole storyline revolved around exactly such a scenario on the Archers for more than a year (Helen & Rob). And that opened the doors to thousands of people going public who had experienced this themselves, or had a family member who had/was living in a similarly coercive relationship.

I didn't know that Chewbacca I've never listened to the Archers. It's great that radio and tv programs cover these issues especially as it helps to take away the stigma that so many victims feel and enables them to come forward.

It went on for about a year and was very harrowing Smileless. Rob started off as kind, loving and attentive but soon started to separate Helen from her family and friends; always "for her own good" of course. It meticulously detailed how, little by little, the victim is so diminished and unsure of their ability to do anything at all without the management and coercion of their manipulator, or because they become well versed in the consequences of what will happen if they disobey or displease; they do anything and everything to appease. Obviously it was a soap drama but it brilliantly articulated how families can be fractured irrevocably by one person.

Smiless so it’s not just you and Mr S your dil had also banished her own parents!
I feel for your son being embroiled in this marriage and it’s my belief that one day he will wake up and see what has happened to his life.
As for me l’ll continue pulling the eggshells out of the soles of my feet for the time being.
At least now I feel l have some insight into this subject and will know where to bring my problems if it happens to me.

It meticulously detailed how, little by little, the victim is so diminished and unsure of their ability to do anything at all without the management and coercion of their manipulator, or because they become well versed in the consequences of what will happen if they disobey or displease; they do anything and everything to appease. Obviously it was a soap drama but it brilliantly articulated how families can be fractured irrevocably by one person

It did Chewbacca ...and demonstrated exactly what can happen to anyone, in certain circumstances

I know this as I have had abusive relationships in the past because of what my mum taught me was normal but I know now how this was wrong. If things hadn't changed and I hadn't had access to the Internet I would still be in horrible relationships so there is hope for the future and I hope you can all get some comfort from that and don't get stuck in the past.
I hope you all feel better. I have found a really good website for estrangement where no one is made to feel like they need to feel bad for being estranged or worry about being estranged like a lottery called Stand Alone for anyone who wants to look at that. There are people working to end estrangement through education and positive change and laws protecting abuse victims and training for people to spot it and help.

I have almost responded to this thread several times, then changed my mind. I am not sure any good can come out of an EAC responding on a thread like this. But here I am, responding.

If I have asked you not to contact me, that means no contact. No letter, flowers, texts, phone calls, etc. There is no loophole that makes contact ok. I did not say, I dont want you to contact me EXCEPT cards on holidays. Nor did I say, I do not want contact EXCEPT when you send flowers to make yourself feel better.

My point by posting the above comment is to share the viewpoint of an EAC. In all the cases that I have heard from other EAC, contact after asking not to be contacted does not lead to good tidings.

But, of course, each situation is its own and of course each person must make their own decisions. I am hopeful that the person making decisions sits down and thinks through the possible consequences before making contact.

Anyhow, the reason I decided to post is to say thank you to Armadillo for posting the information on that site. It is very difficult as an EAC, and I am sure an EP, to find information that is unbiased against the other party. What I have commonly seen are sites that are for one group or the other. It is easy to put blinders on, for both sides, and only want to hear support or opinions from supporters.

As I stated in another thread, all relationships are tricky and, IMO, one of the best things we can all do is to stop the shame of enstrangement on both sides. We ALL need support and by talking about this (same as other topics like mental health) we are getting it out in the open.

So many of us feel as though we are the only estranged person on the face of the earth. And that simply is not true. We shouldnt be hiding in shame because a relationship has ended in estrangement.

I think it will also go a long way if we open up the conversation from both points of view.