Having a weak moment

If they don't tell you Bridie how are you supposed to know?

I really don't know Smileless, I just know it hurts us all so much, and I wish i could make sense of it.

Smileless Innocent comments are like a red flag to a bull with some people - sounds like what you saw as a joke she took as a challenge. Awful, awful, awful.

Bridie My mother was absolutely hideous at times, controlling, judgemental and shaming but I would never have dreamed of hurting her like this, because it would have reflected so badly on me. She had her own problems and was human and fallible, so who was I to judge? I think this generation just feel they are entitled to more, many of them lack the humility to get what they want honourably and as long as they don't have to pay they don't care who else does. They throw us under the bus through their own inadequacies and make a mockery of all the years of effort and love that was poured into them. If we asked them to examine their motives as thoroughly as we are expected to examine ours they would fold at the first hurdle. Much as I love him my son as an adult has chosen to become a nasty, arrogant and weak man. I'd hoped for better for him, I still do. They are exactly who they choose to be. You can keep trying to make sense of it forever, but it's not your monster, you didn't make it and you can't kill it. All my best Bridie, I wish I could take some of the hurt. x

Maybe it's seen as harassment if the right things aren't said.
Recently I answered my mum because she said something that was blaming other people for us falling out and I explained that wasn't true and what was the truth.
Well it's my truth anyway and she just got angry and said she doesn't want a relationship with me anyway.
So then she is harassing me because she gets in contact when she doesn't want a relationship with me.

I think that of someone says they don't want you to contact them then it is always harassing isn't it?
I don't want a relationship with my mum the way she is and now I know she doesn't really want a relationship with me and its just for appearance then neither of us should be contacting each other. I won't answer any more.

I don't think that contacting someone whose said they don't want contact is always harassment as I explained earlier, it depends on what form the contact takes.

If your mum says she doesn't want a relationship with you Armadillo then it does beg the question why she's contacting you at all and I agree that by doing so, she's harassing you.

Those who have been estranged and make contact do so because they do want a relationship, they want to initiate some form of contact to open up the possibility of reconciliation.

We'd hoped better from our ES too Nell and for 27 years he was the best; kind, thoughtful, loving and compassionate. Now he's unrecognisable.

Smileless, I have a wonderful Dil, I am lucky , we don't see a lot of each other but when we do it's great and I can ring anytime and we text. Friends, after having a good relationship with sons girlfriend prior to marriage after about two years they were slowly but surely moved out of their lives and don't see grandchildren. Naturally bewildered by this change they tried hard to reestablish contact, not stalking, just trying to get together to discuss things, for whom do you love more than your children, but there was no give, they were out. They fortunately did not let it break them as a couple , they made the decision to let go. As they said, it could never be the same now anyway, too much heartache, which their son knew they would have suffered. The grandchildren are young adults now and I suppose they have been fed some story, they haven't tried to contact this couple. . I do think a some people make assumptions you must have done something bad to lose contact. It could happen to anyone.

It can as you say Sparkling "happen to anyone" and I feel as your friends do that it can never be the same. For me, if I can't have the wonderful relationship I used to have with our ES, I'd rather have nothing.

We let it go too, to the extent that we moved away to re build our lives. I'm sorry that your friends have had to go through this and pleased that their marriage has survived what is a very traumatic experience.

I have no expectations that our GC will contact us when they're older. Goodness knows what they have been and will be told and I'd rather not know. TBH I really wouldn't want two young men on our door step as a stark reminder of what was taken from us.

Friends, after having a good relationship with sons girlfriend prior to marriage after about two years they were slowly but surely moved out of their lives

Versions of that seem to happen quite a lot Sparkling, very sadly. Even when grandchildren are still seen, it can be a very difficult tightrope!

Why not plant a tree or shrub for your grandchildren? Why not take photos of it as it grows and when they are old enough send them the album full of photographs and messages you meant for them.
This is what I plan to do if my DIL prevents me seeing my granddaughter, which she has threatened to do.

That's a lovely idea keepingquiet.

lots of hugs for you ,, not too bad a response then? who knows, and I pray... that it softens a little of the hard heart.

keepingquiet sounds a nice idea. Sorry you are even having to consider the possibility

I don't think estrangement could happen to anyone I think it happens to some people in some situations. I just don't want to scare anyone into worrying about their relationships.
Relationships can be up and down all the time but if we all worried they might be estranged that would have a bad impact on everything really.

It could happen to anyone Armadillo and I think that more people are sadly becoming aware of this, which is why we hear about family members 'walking on egg shells' for fear of becoming estranged if they don't.

Armadillo you only need to look at any of the estrangement threads, on this forum alone, to see how many people, who have hitherto enjoyed close, loving and supportive relationships with their families, are suddenly blindsided by estrangement. Not just between parents and their adult children, but between siblings, in laws, cousins etc. There are so many triggers; arguments, disputes, rifts, bereavement, disagreements about money; it can happen to anyone. No one should be complacent.

I don't see it that way because anyone can win the lottery or get hit by a bus but that's luck. Estrangement isn't luck, I wouldn't be estranged if my mum wasnt a bad mum and some people wouldn't be estranged if there werent other nasty people but there are situations where people do choose good people over bad. Or bad over good even if it is hard to see why someone would ever chose a bad person over loving parents. A lot of estrangement aren't luck they are choices people made and bad characters and behaviours that people learned.
My mum said that she hopes that happens to me with my boys and that was a very painful thing to listen to and I wouldn't want anyone to hear things like that. I think if it's upsetting to believe that estrangement can happen to anyone then you shouldn't especially if you already lost someone. It's not right to not find any joy in life for worrying. Sorry that's just my opinion.

Sorry that's just my opinion.

And of course you're perfectly entitled to it.

I also think that estrangement can happen to anyone, for so many reasons. Believing that does not stop me finding joy in life but it does make me aware of all possibilities and to not take anything for granted.

Can someone explain that to me because it doesnt makes sense. There are places where estrangement is never heard of and whole families where there is no estrangement so it can't be anyone.

I realise that there are families where there's been no estrangement, I'm not sure about places where estrangement is never heard of, but that doesn't mean it can't happen to anyone.

It happened to us and the sequence of events that resulted in it, could happen to anyone.

There are places where estrangement is never heard of and whole families where there is no estrangement so it can't be anyone.

So?
Some families bump along happily for generations, with no serious events that cause one or more of its members to pull away.
Some families have a very fractious dynamic where one or more members pull away following years of disruption and negative behaviour.
Some families bump along happily but an event like a death in the family, or a disagreement about money or property is the catalyst for one or more to pull away.
Some families bump along happily until a new member joins them and the family dynamic is irrevocably changed and someone pulls away.

There are hundreds, thousands, millions of reasons why estrangement can happen. In any family. At any time. To any one of us.

Maybe that makes you feel better but it doesn't make me feel better and I don't agree sorry. I think it's patterns in families or ways we don't prepare our children for dangers and I think that is getting better in life and it's even less anyone.

I feel with some children it’s always lurking.
Two of our children I’m completely confident in saying, that it’s extremely unlikely to ever happen. One daughter, however is very sensitive, often misinterprets things which are said, is very aware of everything needing to be fair, and has periods of being cool with us.
My way of dealing with it, is to pretend I haven’t noticed anything, and things gradually go back to normal,
We once came close when we took our youngest daughter and her children away for a couple of days one year, to give them a bit of a break. Our other daughter and her husband had taken their children to Florida for three weeks and we didn’t think she’d begrudge her sister three nights in Cornwall, we were wrong, it caused a massive row.
We tread very carefully with her, I’m partly annoyed with her, and partly feel worried about her, I just hope that one day she won’t walk away.

In hindsight I think you might be right Sara1954, with my daughter I'm confident is she has a problem she will talk about it and we will resolve it - we've always had a bit of a 'hive mind' and are very similar in our communication styles and thought patterns.

With my ES despite all his many fine and lovable characteristics he was always the sulker and the brooder and rather than facing problems head on is/was a bit of a grievance collector. He's also inclined to be a bit lazy and likes other people to do the graft in relationships. He likes an easy life So when he met DIL and married her rather than communicate about issues that came up it was easier to appease her by siding with her. Compounded by the fact that she's also the breadwinner I think he hung on to which side his was buttered!

Some people are more brittle, for many reasons. They can sometimes feel squashed in the middle of other relationships and see inequities and slights where there are none intended. They can be quite high maintenance and it's a good job we love them!? All we can do is hope they gain a sense of security about themselves as they mature.

I will add one thing and hope you'll see it in good part. My relationship with one sister completely broke down because she constantly pretended not to notice things ( not just with me) and if pushed about an issue would shut it down and deny it. Being on the receiving end over a long period of time can erode a relationship to nothing because nature abhors a vacuum - where there is a gap in response, people will fill it, mostly with assumptions, negative beliefs and car crash scenarios. I think it's always better to talk and be open, but I don't know your daughter so I'm not judging.

It might be that your sensitive daughter needs to feel 'more' understood and heard. I imagine you're exhausted by trying, but hang in there, if she feels heard, understood and included hopefully it'll be enough to keep her with you.