Child's wishes

I feel for you, and know how it feels x

I understood from when my daughter was in family court a couple of years ago that grandparents have no rights but rely on their children - the parents of the grandchildren - to arrange contact with them.

I fully understand your pain. I have done the same for 3 years, sent cards and gifts but have never known if GC got them. It is heartbreakingly cruel when all you want is for your GC to know that you care deeply about them, and that you didn't abandon them.

I last saw my eldest grandson when he was 7. He’s over 30 now and when I tried to get in touch once he was an adult, I got a reply from his step father telling me to leave him alone. It broke my heart when he was 7 and again when he was an adult. I will never try again as I could not face further heartbreak.

In a court of law, from the age of 10, a child's feelings/ desires are generally listened to and taken into consideration.

My own son at the age of 10 was causing a lot of trouble for me and the stress of this was affecting my health (MS), I asked socservs for advice and their solution was to hold a case conference which my (poisonous) mother managed to get involved in and said she wanted to take him away from me and raise him herself.

I was not a particularly young mum and there were no red flags associated with my parenting, in fact I also had a3yr old at the time. My 10yr old was asked whether he would like to live with his grandmother, he said yes and he's lived with her for the past 22yrs. My wishes as his mother/carer were totally disregarded. I did continue to raise my younger child like an only child and he's a very kind, considerate, loving young man of 25 now.

We did later discover that my elder son had some mh issues and no matter how much I fought to have him returned to me, it was always what 'he' wanted that the courts bowed down to, his brother's desire for them both to be together with me was never considered.

So, basically, if it suits the courts and social services to take a child's feelings into consideration, they will, if it doesn't suit them, then they won't.

After going through the court process with my other half and his ex wife I wouldn't bother. It's all very well getting a court order but enforcement is another matter. He has a court order but if they have a disagreement she withholds the children to spite him. He goes to court and spends more money she gets a slap on the wrist and carries on doing as she wants, hence he has a huge debt to pay and achieved nothing. The children are getting older now and are working it out for themselves, they realise the holiday they didnt get to go on with is was not our fault!!!
Going to court would also antagonize my sons so not worth it and I cant afford it either.

I always thought the children had a right to who they could see, but after speaking with a friend who is not allowed to see her GC as her estranged DIL is being vile, I was told that this is not the case. They live very close to each other too which makes it very cruel, my friend’s son is so ground down by his ex he doesn’t have the strength to fight her. It is very sad.

It's very sad reading this. I'm wondering what things/ happenings were so devastating as to make you estranged from your children/grandchildren and resulting in you being disengaged from your grandkids. "Pride comes before a fall". Send your sons or daughters flowers and don't aportion blame. Just try to get talking to them and take things slowly. Too many 'losses' at the moment. When they (grand-parents/ parents/ kids/ grandkids) are gone, it'll be too late.

It's been more than 8 years for us effalump and believe me it's got nothing to do with pride on our part, just the acceptance that there's nothing we can do so the decision was taken to move on with our lives, which we have done.

Your friend's situation sounds very much like ours Shropshirelass, we also lived very close, just 15 doors down the road so almost 5 years ago we moved away.

Best thing we ever did.

I agree effalump it is very sad. Actually the range of emotions one feels makes it even more raw than the word sad can convey.

Whilst I understand why it would seem that sending a bunch of flowers or a carefully worded card would help.
It really doesnt, in some (most?) cases.
The receiver has to be ready to accept their part in the problem first. To then be in the frame of mind where they can accept such an overture, without attributing blame.

As we all know, we cant change others just ourselves.

Gran16: you are right it is all very well going through the court process but to have it enforced if the children are withheld is another matter. It all takes time as well and money with so much stress involved. My daughter would also be antagonized that I had taken the legal option to try and have contact with the GC and knowing her she would tell the children I was trying to take them from her it's them that would suffer.

Effalump : yes it is sad to have estrangement from GC particularly when you have been in their lives for some years.
Sorry it has nothing to do with pride if only that was the problem. Send some flowers and don't talk of blame is what you have said.
I expect you want to be helpful although unless you have lived with even the most basic of estrangement you will have no idea what it can be like. Sometimes it comes about because of divorce or relationship breakdown and in some cases a son or daughter having MH problems and spiralling out of control because of substance abuse and neglecting their children, either way it is traumatic for those concerned.
Having to jump through everything you have to before you even get the opportunity to get a court appointment is bad enough and then waiting to find out if you can get that precious contact to see your GC is another thing and it all costs money.
If like you say a bunch of flowers could fix things how easy it would be, because as you say there are too many losses, and grand-parents can go and damaged children can be taken in to care and yes it is all sadly so much too late but realistically
it is going on every day but many do not have to think about it because it is not happening to them.

Send your sons or daughters flowers and don't aportion blame. Just try to get talking to them and take things slowly.

Sadly effalump it just is not that simple for many posters on here; if only it were!

If only it were that simple effalump
I have tried to contact both my sons to resolve issues and my eldest said "we've never had a good relationship so let's leave it there" .. news to me!! My youngest told me if he was younger he'd get himself adopted .. dont understand that at all and he has blocked every source of contact so I can only post letters, I tried and got no reply. Cant do anymore than that. Sadly my 2 youngest GC are casualties of this as they are so young they wouldn't know who I was as seeing them when things were ok was difficult due to distance and me having to do all the visiting, it was too much trouble for them to visit me. The eldest 2 at least I get to see on video chats through their mum. They are 9 and 11 and want contact with me although my son has done his best to stop it. Sad doesn't even start to cover it

effalump we have cut off MIL. She can send all the cards, send all the messages and apologise all she wants. It won’t be acknowledged. We do not want a relationship with her and do not want her to be apart of our families life.

I would be really annoyed if someone was telling her that the things in your comment would sort everything out.

I don’t want anything to do with her but I would think it very wrong for anyone to give her false hope like that.

I understand it is heartbreaking for grandparents cut off unfairly.

Children have the right to know both parents unless it is ruled otherwise in court.

The problem is that children's parents are responsible for safeguarding their welfare and as such are the ones who decide who their children spend time with.

This is why under law only parents are automatically granted leave to get visitation with children.

Grandparents have to ask for leave and must prove a strong bond to do so.

The reason for this is sadly that children cannot always tell a person's character so the parents are the ones who are responsible to decide who is safe.

The reason why the system works as it does, is to safeguard vulnerable children from abusive family members. Whether that's a lot of cases or only a few, it does the job it is meant to.

I was abused in one way by a grandparent and my mother was abusive to me and my children emotionally.

I realise this doesn't help with abusive parents who have cut off family members though. I can only hope the safeguarding improvements that have been put in place in recent years continue to find new ways to keep children safe.

I agree with bibbity

I wish estrangement was as easy as sending someone flowers and moving on without placing blame. Every single instance of estrangement is different and complex and reasons vary.

As for allowing children to decide, 5 years ago my child may have said yes. My mother was well on her way into brainwashing her into hating me. I would have had to fight tooth and nail to keep her away.

Now, my children want nothing to do with her. What she did to my children is unforgivable and I almost lost one because of her.

Effalump, I can only speak for my own situation as estrangement can have so many causes, some fixable, some not. From my perspective, things were never that bad and communication might have fixed things. I'm someone who will talk things out and I tried. It turns out DH's family don't. As far as I know to this day, there has been no attempt on their part to reach an understanding. I do not understand that.

It's been at least 15 years now. In the early years a bunch of flowers might have shown some attempt and willingness to communicate. For the first ten years I'd probably have been willing to communicate but I would approach with caution until I knew things were going to be different. At this point, I just don't see anything changing. They still don't communicate and I'm no longer willing to get involved. The messenger always gets shot anyway.

Advising to keep sending cards, letters, flowers, etc - it is very dangerous and can backfire big time

As another EAC, this is my experience - every experience is different

I tried talking to my narc parents, compromise, talk to them again, tell them clearly they were overstepping (as they asked me to tell them), time outs, give them another chance, talk again..... wash, rinse and do it all over again for decades - their selective amnesia was the obstacle to address the issues

They have been cut off for a decade +
I received an email from them with yet the same message, a week ago or so.

1. Medical emergency that is life threatening - but they did not want to be dramatic (cry me a river)

2. Because of point 1 above, it was a pity we do not communicate and they do know what happened to break the relationship (yet, our chats for years are forgotten again, what a surprise - not)

3. All their lives, all they did what was best for me (same blah blah blah i heard all my life)

4. They are super proud of me as I achieved everything I wanted in life so easily (rolling my eyes, nothing in my life as been easy, I had to fight hard for it, I earned it! Their statement is in fact an insult and show how out of touch they are/were with me growing up)

5. I owe them one yet last communication to tell them why I dont talk to them (please keep waiting, no reply from me)

So, same old story.
They have learned nothing, same old broken record, same old poor me my daughter is so mean I wasnt perfect and I dont deserve this

This letter achieves the opposite - I will continue to stay away.

I will be called cold hearted, cruel, even mentally unbalanced by some gransnetters.

I only have one life to live and I deserve to be happy.

I think if, at this point, I got the right kind of communication from MIL that showed she was willing to hear us and self reflect, I might cautiously dip my toes in the water. But she doesn't want to communicate with me and DH won't communicate with her. So that's probably not going to happen.

We did get a letter once from a distant relative urging my DH to make amends with his mother. That just told us more about the one sided story she'd heard than anything. Why is the burden on DH to make the first move? DH wasn't the one who announced an estrangement. Yes, from what I have heard from DH, it was officially declared, and not by him. It only hurt the situation.

Hithere. Only you knows how you feel and how you have been treated. No one has the right to call you cruel or cold hearted. You have had to do what is right for you.

Life is short and you must life the life you want. And fill that life with people you love and care for people who love and care for you. People who just put you down all the time and don't love or care for you aren't worth it.

You have shown great strength and courage to rise about your up bringing. Be proud of what you have achieved and who you are . ?

Heartwretched, in answer to you question, yes the Family Court in private or public law has to consider the wishes and feelings of the children.
Grandparents have no rights. Parents have responsibilities to meet their children’s needs. Most parents who separate, ensure the children maintain significant relationships. The situations that end up in the family court usually involve either domestic abuse or emotionally intractable parental relationships. It’s messy and the parents will be expected to cooperate with mediation (unless abuse is present) .

If your attempts to re-establish relationships with the parents have failed, I can’t see the benefit to the children, to you or their parents of you trying to get contact via the Family Court. I fear this world entrench the alienation. Going via the other grandparents isn’t a straight way of dealing with this. It may help for you to book a consultation with a family mediator. An experienced, independent view may help you.

In Spain, where we live, grandparents and even aunts & uncles have a legal right of visit to grandchildren. They see it as a right for children to know both families. What they do when they are older, is up to them, but I would never want my grandchildren to think I had abandoned them. Just because their parents don't want to have anything to do with you doesn't mean you can't have a relationship with your grandchildren. I would take them to court. Fight for your and your granchildren's rights!!

Soul you are right and both families should have the right to see grandchildren.
Some Adult children just have different views from their parents and just don't get on. If the Adult child stops a grandparent from seeing the children then the children will feel abandoned by the grandparent.
The only reason I would say to stop the grandparent seeing the children would be if the actual parents had been abused whilst growing up or physical /emotional abuse plus domestic violence had been happening within the relationships.
Nothing like that had ever happened between myself and daughter so I cannot see her reasons for failing to communicate with me and not wanting me to see my grandchildren.

If only we'd lived in Spain Soul.