Child's wishes

Namsnanny

^I'm glad I didn't give in to my child and hand them over to someone who rang the alarm bells^
What were the alarm bells saying?
Was this a court ordered situation?

The courts usually consider all aspects of the childs welfare, which is why somtimes an ex that is abusive to their partner is allowed access to the child. As there is no history of problems, and the dynamics between them are different.
Especially when the child is away from both parents and gets to spend time with them without tension.

Parents obviously allowed their own prejudices to influence the situation when courts arnt involved.
As in access to GP.
In the same way the GC has a different relationship with GP than the parents do.
But the gchildren have to abide by their parents rules, whether the parents intuition is real or imagined.

I won't share the details but when I ran the situation past a few other parents, they agreed it was very concerning. It wasn't a family member btw, but the same situation could occur with family members.

I think it is a mistake to assume that children will spend time with grandparents without tension. My own children who are old enough to remember their GM still want nothing to do with her based on their own memories of direct interaction with her. The others are well aware of the situation and have heard all about it from the older ones. They know what their GM did and think what she did to their father is horrible. They feel that's all they need to know.

"that's the kind of situation that GP's rights was designed for".

GP's don't have any rights, it's the children's rights to know their extended family that are enshrined in the Children Act, and those rights are not limited to a bereavement or divorce situation.

Great final paragraph in your last post Namsnanny.

No they don’t I’m afraid. The court is only interested in the parents. You can do what I did I wrote a letter to the judge but don’t it made much differents.

When I was a child minder one boy aged 10 told me he liked Ribena as his granny gave him it. He told me his mother won't visit the granny anymore and he was sad about it. The mum already told me she needed the place as her mother had reported her to social services. They had visited her but were satisfied the child was well cared for. No social worker was involved in his care.
I think the relationship with granny re-established after a few months as she stopped bringing the child. I hope so anyway as the boy was very sad

I guess I was denied my right to know any of my extended family. However, while I think it was a regretful decision and wish I did know them, I accept that it was my parents' right to make that decision.

I can understand this topic being of concern to some parents CafeAuLait when they have genuine concerns about the safety and welfare of their children, and how this could be jeopardised if in contact with GP's who are known to be capable of abuse.

It is however undeniable that that is not the only reason why GP's are denied contact with their GC, so it's also a distinct possibility that this may be concerning to some parents because they've denied contact to punish and/or out of spite and revenge.

Rather than making their own children's welfare a priority, they are using them.

A friend of mine is in this situation right now as her son was divorced (he had an affair) and she has not seen her two grandchildren since. The ex-wife is Belgian and so had not only cut contract but has left the UK and they don't even have an address. My friend copes with this by, every year, buying a birthday present and Christmas present for each child, wrapping each up with a card and message, and sometimes the odd card or letter during the year, all dated, and they all go into two large plastic storage boxes in the loft (one for each grandchild). She hopes that, at some point, they will make contact, or they will be old enough so that she can make contact with them without the mother blocking contact, and then she can hand over the presents so that they can see that they have always been in her thoughts. It's the only thing that keeps her hopes alive. A very sad situation.

I agree Smileless that there are right and wrong reasons for children to not have contact with GPs. It is never right to use children as weapons. I think, in most cases, loss of the relationship with the GC is usually collateral damage when the relationship with the parents stalls. In that case, I think it's best if the adults do their best to work it out.

The original reason that GPs rights came about was to protect GPs who had lost contact due to death of their child or divorce. I can support this. I know that sometimes GPs have now used these laws on other situations. In these situations, I just have to have faith that the court will look at the whole situation and any parental concerns. I also think some GPs use the court system as a power play too. In those cases, the reason they fell out with their child in the first place is probably found right there.

Each case needs to be taken on its own merits.

Apologies for being pedantic CafeAuLait. You're correct about the provisions of the Children Act taking into account a breakdown of the relationship between children and their extended family due to a death or divorce, but in all cases it's the children's rights that are to be upheld, not the rights of GP's or any other blood extended family member.

Sorry for labouring the point but I do think it's very important for any GP's who are being denied contact with their GC to realise that as far as the law is concerned, they don't have any rights at all.

I agree of course that GP's are just as capable of power play when it comes to going to court as P's are in some cases by denying contact in the first place, and that "each case needs to be taken on its own merits".

I last saw my granddaughter she was 4yrs 3months and 2days old. When I left her at 2.30 that day telling her loved her and would see her soon. I never thought it would be last time I’d see her. She’s nearly 11 now. I’ve pledged with her mum crying down the phone and in the street. I’ve pleaded with her parents and her sisters. She as since also stopped them from seeing her too. my son didn’t want to be with her mum anymore. She became bitter and full of lies. She also as moved with new Bf so none of us know where she as gone. It’s heartbreaking I know. I can imagine the tears you crying because I’ve been there and still do cry. I also used to send cards and presents at first she would take them then she would return them. I have a box with cards and l write her a letter every year and keep in the box for one day when my granddaughter comes looking for us. I also have a savings account for her to. My son tried everything but she never turned up. Medication can go on for 2yrs and you have to pay even if she doesn’t turn up.

Smileless, fair enough. Perhaps different jurisdictions use different terminology. I think the intention of the laws, whatever they are called, is to ensure the continuity of an established relationship between GPs and GC (where this is reasonable). This is not a decision a minor child should be given control of though, IMO. I just don't think young children are always aware of the issues at hand (which they shouldn't be and shouldn't have to deal with) and they shouldn't be put in that position.

My nephew is a Judge and he told us that courts would normally make an order for grandchildren / grandparents to meet each other and spend time with each other as they had before any breakdown of marriage of the parents or if the grandparents separated providing there was “no just cause why they should not”.

I honestly can't even imagine being estranged from my beautiful five grandchildren (from three of my children). We all travel over four hundred miles (return journey) to see each other every six weeks or so.

It must be devastating for you and your grandchildren.

Definitely keep a book for them, highlighting your thoughts and open a savings account for them for when they're older. They'll always know then that they're not forgotten and you have practically reached out to them. It will make all the difference.

Hello Whiff, my late mother was in the same position as you many years ago when my DB split up with his partner the mother of his daughter. My mum had had a very close relationship with her granddaughter until she was 4 then suddenly she was told along with my DB you won’t get to see her again. My mum was heartbroken so kept sending my niece (as did I) presents and cards at birthdays & Xmas for about 4 years but we were never sure she got them as we didn’t get so much as a card saying thank you. Then one day when child was 8 my DM got a vile letter saying for us to stop all cards and presents as they weren’t wanted and would end up in the bin. So my DM stopped and said if ever her DGD knocked at her door when she turned 18 she would take her out and treat her then plus show her her mother’s vile letter she had written to my mum!
Well that day did come around, DGD knocked on my DM door at 20 by which time my DM had unfortunately had a massive stroke and was paralysed all down one side. My SF invited her in, but Mum said she could see she wasn’t really interested in her when she realised my mum was paralysed etc but they gave her some money and mum explained she had wanted to be in touch all those years (being careful not to say anything negative about her mother). My niece seemed a bit money mad and a drama Queen, when my mother passed away she annoyed me at the funeral and I cut her off and that’s the last of her I saw. I personally think she was after money but she came unstuck. It’s such a shame it’s your son as well, if it were me I would write him a letter and somehow make sure it got to him only and appeal to his better nature and hope one day he sees sense. My brother moved abroad and started a new life, having more children again my mum never saw them after 3 years old but it’s only now DM has gone and DB is in his early 60’s that he tells me he regrets the fact his children have no family (apart from me) over here or abroad and worries about when his kids have no grandparents or family they can or will be able to turn too especially after him and now his now ex wife pass have passed.

So sad for you HEARTWRENCHED. ?

By the way my DB also tells me recently he bitterly regrets the fact his children will have no memories of grandparents, aunts & uncles especially at Christmas and family do’s like we’ve got and had as kids. Maybe you should remind your son his children won’t have those family memories either if he’s stupid enough to stay away in those early years. He’s also robbing you of those memories of seeing his children grow up! I’d print this off and send it to him, he might not see the bigger picture now but trust me he will when he gets older!

My DH’s DS and his wife (and her family) abused us on social media. I was undergoing investigation for bowel cancer and my DH’s other son was in hospital the other side of the world. He is fit and well now. We were abused because they thought my DH should travel all that way to see his DS and leave me with premature baby twins to look after. My DH said that he couldn’t leave me and he didn’t have the funds for the travel. I was blamed and we were blocked on SM having called me words I have never used in my life. Seven years on, we have never heard of them or the DGC, who are now adults. We have moved, but could be easily found if they wanted to. Fortunately we have six more DGC who really love us. It’s just one of those things and we try not to think about it. Their loss. My DH now wants a simple cremation when he dies so they stay away.

There are many cases like this on gransnet and sometimes the grandchildren seek out their grandparents later in their life. Admittedly they are older and a new relationship needs to be built up but the joy of a loved one returning must be wonderful.

Had a similar issue with family members a while ago - wont go into the circumstances but after consulting a family law firm they were told that under current UK law, grandparents don’t have automatic rights to see their grandchildren. The solicitor arranged for a mediation assessment meeting between the parents and grandparents - didn’t get anywhere with it, so they had to petition the court for permission to make a child contact arrangement.

This involved making a statement as to their previous relationship with the children - things like whether they had regular contact and whether they undertook child care etc. They also had to say what contact they wanted and why. It was made clear from the start that the children’s interests came before anything else, that the application would be denied if it was deemed to be disruptive enough to cause harm and that the courts’ decision was final with no right of appeal unless on a point of law.

There is no example in case law of any GRP case ever being enforced. So if the parents break the court order there is next to no likelihood of a judge actually doing anything about it.

If two parents are viewed to be healthy and stable their decisions should be final.

My father was domineering, and ar no stage, did I or my siblings know we could look up our granparents. So at 18, I found their address and went. They did not talk about his nonsense. It was something trivial. But having lost out on a relationship with my g ps was down to him. Court action would have done nothing but make him worse. My g ps did nothing wrong to us at all. Karma got him in the end, he lies in his grave with no visitors or flowers. Probably quite warm too...

www.yours.co.uk/life/home/grandparents-rights-in-the-uk/

states sadly that grandparents do not have a right to see their grandchildren in England and Wales. This wording makes me suspect that Scots Law is different on this point, but according to www.thorntons-law.co.uk/for-you/thorntons-family-law-divorce-solicitors/child-issues/grandparents-rights-in-scotland there is no difference.

You might find the site helpful if you are wondering about a court application.

I am sorry you are in this situation. I would not in your place risk making the situation worse by making a court application or involving the other set of grandparents.

In 1984 when I was 29 I had a friend about 15 years older than me. She had a 4 year old GD to whom she was very close indeed. A couple of years later her son split up with his wife and contact was completely broken off. Both GD and GM were distraught. Well she did get some visitation rights eventually but it was a very drawn out process and did involve the courts.

Fast forward to 2018 and the GD now in her 40’s, won a competition for a holiday in Dubai. She invited her now quite elderly Gran whom she loves dearly to accompany her. I thought that was lovely.

Very difficult situation to be in for anybody.
I think when couples divorce they often forget that there is other family extra to just the two of them , or whoever has custody assumes that whatever they feel for the ex partner must automatically be passed on to their parents and extended family, which is sad.
If for whatever reason, the parents split up, both sides should remember that they should work together to bring the children up as one group, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as physical or mental abuse of the partner or the children.
I think that you need to be careful here - if feelings are still raw, if you involve the other grandparents, their contact may also be cut off. I know that when I got divorced, his parents , in my mind were part of him and the same package , so I really didn't want my child to be "contaminated " by contact with his family!
either you could donate towards Christmas/birthday presents with them or open up a savings account on behalf of the grandchildren and put in what you would have spent on a present then either make it available when they go to Uni or at a certain age, or donate towards a charity in their name.
A friend of mine buys a birthday card each year for her grand daughter who has been adopted out of the family , in the hope that they will contact her at some time in the future.

I absolutely understand what you are going through. My stepson has three children; two are his biological children, the oldest has been his daughter since she was 15 months old; she is now 10. He and his ex partner split some time ago and she totally uses the children as a weapon. The first time she stopped him and us from seeing the children for over six months. The eldest child disclosed abuse from her Mother and so my stepson involved Social Services, in retaliation his ex stopped us all from seeing the children. We now haven’t seen the children for almost 15 months. The court has once again ordered contact, but it has not been specified in relation to the eldest child, like it was before. My Stepson has decided that he can’t go through this misery again and so is not going to pursue seeing the eldest child unless the Court agrees to give him parental responsibility over her. I completely get where he is coming from, but it breaks my heart. We have always treated all three children completely equally and out of sheer spite we are prevented from seeing the eldest child just because my stepson’s ex can. I know the youngest child will almost certainly have forgotten us, the middle will be shy, understandably enough, but I dread the thought of collecting the two little ones and the oldest realising she can’t come (we have been specified as the ones to do pickups). My heart is breaking. I do hope that things get sorted out for you at some point ?