Just to see the children

"Again, it is not the children enforcing their rights, it's the grandparents"

No it isn't, it's the courts that enforce the children's rights. I'm surprised you don't know that if you studied it for your diploma VS.

Like I've said, this is a pointless discussion when you constantly and incorrectly refer to GP's rights, P's rights and now GP's enforcing children's rights.

VioletSky

Again, it is not the children enforcing their rights, it's the grandparents.

The children's act in its entirety safeguards children from harm.

So that is why things are as they are and must stay that way.

That is what the Act is intended to do but that is not always how it works. Just the same as in every law, there are areas where it falls short, relies on interpretation with fair rulings and is dependent on all parties being entirely truthful.
When it comes to the Courts, I have watched Judges bend over backwards to be "fair" to unco-operating, violent fathers, mothers who have an agenda because of their feelings of rejection and shutting down an area of questioning because "lots of people threaten to shoot their wives but don't go through with it," even when there were unrelated, professional people who went in fear of their lives so were willing to give evidence of their belief he was serious.

I agree icanhandthemback maybe one day there'll be a better and fairer system in place.

It's not a pointless discussion, many good points have been made which I have read and considered.

As for me, I have said very clearly that I do think some grandparents are cut off unfairly. I just don't see how the process can change without putting some children at risk of at least some form or harm and children come first.

I could just let you know if I change my mind?

So, who is in the best place to fight for childrens right?

The children can not, so it comes down to parents and grandparents. When those two parties are in disagreement, who has the higher authority?

Summerlove

So, who is in the best place to fight for childrens right?

The children can not, so it comes down to parents and grandparents. When those two parties are in disagreement, who has the higher authority?

Exactly this.

If the parents are deemed fit and all involved agencies believe they are fit. Leave them alone.

If they are not fit then visitation isn't going to help at all.

I would agree with you Smileless2012 " its not the rights of the parents or the grandparents that are the issue" its the rights of the children.

Younger children do not have a voice of their own and should the grand-parents take it on themselves to allow the children to use their voice by going to court to specify what they want then it should be allowed. This is not the grand-parents forcing their rights it is GPs wanting to keep contact
of much loved GC who both love each other.

The children's act in its entirety needs a vast overhaul as it far from now is not fit for purpose for the job it is designed to do. Children are not properly safe-guarded from parents that prove inadequate and are unfit to do their correct parenting role.

The children act must move forward from it's Dickensian stance and create a modern safer child influenced act that works for the children and not sub-standard parents that are only trying to score points against the one in the middle the grand-parent.

Yes it is correct as the grand-parent we have to first apply to the court for permission to bring the case to court and hope we can be successful. Then we have to prove how much we have been in the grand-children's lives, and how much they mean to us and jump through a million hoops.
As we do this the parent (which in my case is one parent) of the children because sadly the other parent is in prison and we do not even know the father of the youngest child neither does it's mother and the sad case of a social worker who has her on a child protection order is still trying to say she would like to be a good mother at some point and wants to keep the family together. So yet the parents are still treated with having parental "rights"
Only us grand-parents are gas-lighted and invalidated when we have been the only stable ones all through the children's traumas and yet parents can rip them from us just as they please and we have to jump through hoops in a court room.
"It's only a farce a cruel joke and nothing more" and it is about time that grand-parents were listened to.

Glammagran you are right I would not leave a penny to my off spring that has given me this heartbreak that is if there is anything left as I have paid out hundreds already which has been pay to see your grand-children and you can take them out. I payed and always would and if I had to sell my home and everything I had I would gladly do it just for those children. Of course I am just a stupid grand-mother I know nothing about loving my grand-children do I?

Bibbity

If the parents are deemed fit and all involved agencies believe they are fit. Leave them alone.

If they are not fit then visitation isn't going to help at all.

Another very good point.

Grandparents vary as much as parents and children do.

My ex MIL was toxic, i estranged her completely in 1979 and never saw her again. Nor did my kids, until they were in their 30’s, and once was enough for them.

Courts or no courts, hell would have frozen over before I had complied with her seeing them. To be clear, my ex husband (her son) felt the same way as me.

On the other hand, my parents were wonderful GPs, and even if I had fallen out with them, there is no way I would have kept the children from them. They just all loved each other to bits.

Children might have some rights, but parents, ultimately, need to have the final say. So, if the parents don’t want contact between GPs and GCs, for whatever reason, that’s the way it needs to be. No courts, no trying to see them, nothing.

Children can’t possibly make decisions about seeing someone, as they may not know the background to the problems.

The Family Court system is unreliable anyway - many fathers struggle to see their children, despite court orders saying they can. The mothers often block them.

Part of the issue is also the reality of how implementing third party visitation would work, the impact on the child and core family unit.

Two sets of grandparents. Each gets a weekend of visitation. That’s going to have a negative impact on the core family, as many families have only the weekends to do activities together, since most spend weeknights on a track race to get kids fed, homework done, etc before bed.

Then holidays and birthdays. Is it better for kids to miss that time with their parents, so grandparents can have it?

Then there’s the reality of divorced and blended families. Add in additional sets of grandparents, parents already having decreased time with their children due to co-parenting arrangements… how many pieces can we cut a child into? What happens if the child has extra curriculars, and doesn’t want to go somewhere on a weekend? Or a blended family, part of the siblings go to visitation, and shuffled around, and the others stay home, how doesn’t that negatively impact the sibling relationship?

I simply don’t see how court ordered visitation with third parties truly works in the best interest of the child, overall.

And if grandparents are granted visitation, then stepparents who were actively helping raise the child ought to be eligible too. So add in another round of visitation. And also the step grandparents. Where does it logically end?

I don’t see how kids having less time with their core family and diminishing those relationships is healthy.

But these are not your children! No one except the parents gets to dictate who they have in their lives. I think the importance of grandparents is being massively overstated here.

All this talk of going to court would be unnecessary if grandparents had an automatic right to see their grandchildren as in the EU and many other countries.
I’m sure the EU would have given this great consideration before bringing it about. Then grandchildren could not be used as a tool in some vendetta against grandparents.

Sweep123

All this talk of going to court would be unnecessary if grandparents had an automatic right to see their grandchildren as in the EU and many other countries.
I’m sure the EU would have given this great consideration before bringing it about. Then grandchildren could not be used as a tool in some vendetta against grandparents.

I think they still have to go through the court system of their home country Sweep, so courts are still in the equation

In my case implementing third party visitation rights is not vastly complicated and would not cause damage on the core family time that the parental person in charge of the children
would have difficulties with.

In my case there are no other grand-parents involved with the children as the two older ones "but still under nine" are the ones with the father in prison and his parents have never bothered with the children and do not want to know. Then there is the youngest child and there is no indication who his father is let alone any grand-parents involved.
So I am the only GP they have known.

It does not only have to be weekend either as my grand-children love to look and read books any books will do. They do not want to be left to the joys of a tablet to occupy themselves they like to be read to, at times their parent is too tired to do that and they like to sit with me "GP" who will be only to happy to do it.

If the only way a grand-parent can get that relationship back on track and keep seeing them children then it certainly is in the interests of the child.

As for step -grand-parents I cannot comment but if they had spent time raising the child then I do not see why they should then be cut off.

I can only comment that if grand-children have had grand-parent involvement for several years and have thrived with having that in place then it is can only be considered as detrimental if the one with parental rights suddenly announces they are breaking that contact. To hurt the child by doing that is not best parenting and looking at the best outcome for the child.

Not all parents are good, look how many children have been injured at the hands of natural parents, some even dying.,they are thank goodness a small minority as are manipulative grandparents. There is nothing to suggest Heartwrench was not a loving grandparent, she helped her d and sil get out of debt reducing funds for her old age and was very much part of their lives., She was fine then as she was useful. Court could look at the circumstances, but it is definitely not a route I would take unless the children were in danger or neglected.

The courts have the higher authority Summerlove just as they do when parents who split up and there are arguments about who the children will reside with, when one parent is being denied access by the other etc.

It has nothing to do with the fitness of the parents Bibbity this about whether or not it's in the best interests of the children to continue their relationship with their GP's.

No DiamondLily in the context of this discussion, children don't have some rights, they're the only ones with rights in accordance with the law.

If you feel that "the importance of grand parents is being overstated here" AmberSpyglass then it's the law you have an issue with. "No one except the parents gets to dictate who they have in their lives"; the law says otherwise.

I keep reading how things must remain as they are to ensure a grandchild’s safety. Does that mean all children should be removed from their parents to ensure the child’s safety as the incidents of parents harming their children are well known.
I have never heard of grandparents harming their grandchildren.

Amberspyglas I would say to you that you have got that wrong. The father of my grand-children who is in prison has had his rights to his children suspended not because he done any physical abuse but because he was a drug dealer. So at least childrens services got that bit right and he cannot even see the children when he is released unless he jumps through a million hoops first.
Also you state that the importance of grand-parents is being
massively overstated here ; I will tell you once only that I will fight till I have no breath in my body to keep any one away from my grand-children that does not have their best interests at heart even their father. He should have been thinking about his children before he went drug dealing.

Sweep

Plenty of grandparents have harmed their gc, on purpose or by accident.

The grandfather and the cruise incident
Tbe grandmother in the US who killed the gc as she didnt want to return the child to the mother (who was divorced from the father)

A reddit of a gm that didnt believe the gc had a coconut allergy and the gc passed away due to her negligence

Allsorts

Not all parents are good, look how many children have been injured at the hands of natural parents, some even dying.,they are thank goodness a small minority as are manipulative grandparents. There is nothing to suggest Heartwrench was not a loving grandparent, she helped her d and sil get out of debt reducing funds for her old age and was very much part of their lives., She was fine then as she was useful. Court could look at the circumstances, but it is definitely not a route I would take unless the children were in danger or neglected.

No grandparents in these countries have an automatic right to see their grandchildren and do not have to go to court.

Abusive parents don't magically become not abusive when the grandchildren turn up.

We can't acknowledge abusive parents exist without acknowledging abusive grandparents do too.

Even in cases where parents were abusive or neglectful to their children, but they have done the work to recover, we shouldn't expect parents who have been traumatised and let down by them to hand over their children.

Sweep I don't think you are correct there. Besides, who is going to enforce those rights? Parents aren't going to and grandparents can't just come and take away the children for whatever time they deem appropriate.

If the parents do not agree to grandparents seeing the children the grandparents still ha e to go to court. They just have more right to do so, that doesn't mean those rights will be granted against the parents wishes in all cases.

The fact that you are having to quote incidents from Puerto Rico (cruise ship incident) and US shows how rare it is.

This isn't about abuse is it. Why is it impossible to have a discussion about EGP's seeing their GC without abuse being brought into it?