SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

Whiff, I think you made a very wise move, you sound as if you are so happy where you are, it’s manageable for you and within easy reach of your daughter. I think your son just sent that e mail to hurt, it didn’t matter if it was true or not. What or who wound him up in unfathomable, one day he will regret it, if he isn’t already.
Very true that haste is a waste of time.

Sorry hate not waste ?

The WorriedWell I agree it's strange. How lovely about your SIL! Like you my kids are not in contact with each other, which is sad. It shows that you can bring them up to be friends as well as siblings , to get along with yourself and others and think you have a good relationship with them (and have no clue that they will estrange from their parents and each other!) There was no clue except in my case, my son had been quite demanding and trying to control me (but failing)

Whiff Im sorry if I misunderstood. I'd have understood you doing what's beast for your health. It's sad that your DiL saw your being nearer as a problem. I'm so sad to read of what she wrote on Reddit, too. She seems to have massive problems and jealousy is so ugly! How can your son love her hatred? I suppose he does what he has to to keep the family together, so he can be a Dad. Hate is very destructive, I agree.

to all of you lovely ladies.

Theworried We had the driveway VE day celebrations, just 16 houses on our 'way' [rd] We have a whatsapp group and of course all were invited, not everyone came out and realised after that not all were on the whatsapp group, but we are all very friendly, so if they had wanted to join in they would have, we had a couple from the adjacent rd come round and they just stood in the rd. Maybe you didn't see/hear the invite.,

You're welcome Onward and I'm glad it helped. We know it isn't our fault and yet we put their entire upbringing under the microscope, looking for something, anything that may explain the inexplicable.

There's no rhyme nor reason to it is there Whiff. Our ES lived 4 miles away from us, then a few months before they got married they moved into the same village, just 15 doors away.

There'd been examples of her jealousy prior to the move, so why on earth did they move even closer.

"You can't spoil a good child with love" your mum was right theworriedwell and we've all experienced just how destructive hate and jealousy can be.

I think that about the initial note and subsequent emails from our ES Allsorts, they were sent to hurt and the truth didn't come into it.

More snow showers here this morning. Certainly makes you feel that Christmas is on its way.

You love who you love there is no knowing who we fall in love with we just do.

My son and daughter in law love eachother very much and the children are their world. They have been through a lot together. My son has always been able to talk to me . If he had said sorry mom I can't see you anymore I need to put my family first. I would have been upset and hurt but would have understood.

It is only right our children put their families first. But it's the way he did it that hurts so much. How can he be so cruel and give me a wonderful time on my birthday then 4 days later send that email. It was to cruel and cowardly. He must have known on my birthday what he was going to do.

He and my daughter in law knows what a bad mother, mother in law and grandmother is. They knew my mother in law.

But my husband would never give up on his parents and after he died I looked after his mom. And I hated her. But I did it for my husband. None of her family did the things I did for her. Even when when she deigned she had a son or grandchildren I still didn't give up on her. I did it for the love of my husband.

Love trumps hate any day.

Yoginimeisje

Theworried We had the driveway VE day celebrations, just 16 houses on our 'way' [rd] We have a whatsapp group and of course all were invited, not everyone came out and realised after that not all were on the whatsapp group, but we are all very friendly, so if they had wanted to join in they would have, we had a couple from the adjacent rd come round and they just stood in the rd. Maybe you didn't see/hear the invite.,

No I know I wasn't invited, another neighbour gleefully told me all about it. It would be nice if I could see it that way.

Whiff that was a vile thing to put on Reddit, well vile to put it anywhere.

You're right, there's nought so queer as folk.

One of the podcasts I follow is a guy who calls himself Joker, his you tube is called Better Batchelors. No idea what made me view it but it's fascinating. He is divorced, so as he rightly admits technically not batchelor. He has quite a following, both guys who have never married and those who are divorced.

It's really interesting to hear the male viewpoint.

There was a case study yesterday Of a guy who is initiating a divorce after 18 years. He was a married to a classic narc.......he described his life with her and it was truly horrific. The only reason he put up with it was for his children sake, but he says he just can't take any more. He knows he will lose everything, that she will use the kids as leverage to wipe him out. He knows he will lose contact with his kids and he even fears for his job because he knows how vindictive she will be. As he says he will be left with nothing but a pile of debt, probably living in some grotty bedsit. But in his words "I will be feee".

He says he only truly realised what was happening when he was forced to spend a few weeks with his brother and his SIL during the early days of the pandemic. He was able to compare his brothers loving marriage with what he called his own "wasteland" and miserable existence, it was his wake up call.

As I listened to his tale, I found myself thinking of my son and all our poor sons. Poor devils. If my sons life is only half as bad as the man's tale yesterday then my heart bleeds for him.

I think, deep down, many of our sons do know, especially if they have come from loving homes and have seen their parents happy marriages. They must realise that their relationships are twisted caricatures of what a loving relationship should look like but they are well and truly trapped. I think they do know they being manipulated and controlled but it's very difficult for them to fight that coercive control when they are in so deep. Even more so when they have children.

Abuse doesn't have to be physical to be deadly in its effects. Emotional and financial abuse can be just as devastating. I heard one victim of narcissistic abuse refer to its effects as dehumanising,

There was also an episode where three young women were being interviewed as to why they couldn't find partners, despite dating prolifically. (There's a clue there for a start?) They were aged 24, 28 and 32. They were complaining there were "no good men out there". By "good men" what they really mean is tall, handsome and rich, very rich.?

As they talked and revealed their true natures, it was clear they were all narcissists and utterly delusional. To answer the men who asked what these women would bring to the table I have the answer. They had nothing to offer a potential partner but misery.

I am beginning to think the rise and rise of social media sites such as Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Reddit etc have an awful lot to answer for. We know they have given rise to the "selfie generation" and encourage people to post images of their perfect lives whilst "living the dream".

The man I mentioned said that this was what his wife was doing........he said all their friends, work colleagues etc would never believe him if he had told them what she was like behind closed doors.

I can see this with my DIL which is why I no longer follow her on social media. I even caught her out using filters etc to make herself look more attractive. I doubt that anyone other than myself, my second son and his girlfriend has guessed her true nature her, because she too puts up the facade of her perfect life with her "gorgeous handsome husband" (her words) and their "beautiful adorable children".

But I have seen behind the facade and it ain't pretty.

Hey ho.......

Well I have been invited for tea tomorrow. It's ok, I'm not fooled. It's the hoovering phase. ??

Love definitely trumps Hate! You're right there Whiff I'm so sorry, that's painful and what a coward. He only needed to say "Mum I need to put my family first" and you'd have understood. My ES has also failed to communicate at all so I have literally no idea what he's even thinking.

Yes Smileless I have been putting the whole thing under the microscope and all I can see is that there IS a history of estrangement in our family (older generation) but I don't want to write about it online in case I'm outed. All I can say is perhaps ES was influenced in some way or that it's perhaps genetic. That's crazy about them moving closer even though there had been signs of jealousy! Maybe she thought she could handle it, but then found the "Green Eyed Monster* took over?!!

How wonderful having snow showers! It's very sunny here but a bit cold!

That's so interesting Derbyshirelass seeing from the "other side". I know my son well enough to know that he has disliked me being friendly with anyone including my friends, neighbours, his ex's and current wife. I have no doubt there is some narcissism involved in our situation, but my DiL is very self contained and unemotional so its hard for me to know 100% what her stance is.

I was blocked on social media by my ES and DiL, but I think my ES did the blocking. He has done this before. From time to time they unblock me to probably see what I'm doing because I see them in my "people you may know"

There's really Now't so queer as folk, is there!!

Here's a good one www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh8AA-VcfRQ&ab_channel=KCTV5News

and also this one childhoodtraumarecovery.com/all-articles/childhood-rejection-leading-to-possessive-behavior-in-adult-relationships/

I tried my best with all the love to make my kid secure, but I now realise that I wasn't able to do it. I recognise that. He has tried to control and dominate me as an adult, which is strange because at the same time as doing that he has claimed that I'm trying to control him.

All I ever wanted was for them to live in their own home (not mine!!!) and be independant , to see them sometimes. I suppose at least the first part has happened. I have never wanted to control them in any way, but think he was projecting his control onto me. Perhaps our EC are bad at setting boundaries, so they close us out because they don't know how to set healthy boundaries?

An invitation to tea DSL. Hope it goes OK.

I know without reading that particular article that rejection in childhood can result in possessiveness in adult relationships Onward.

I knew ES's wife's parents, especially her mother for several years. We were quite close and I know the type of childhood she had and the behaviour she witnessed from time to time and was also subjected too.

You'd think she'd have liked to have been part of a happy and loving family but no, she preferred to tear it apart.

If your son has insecurities please don't think they're of your making. I certainly agree that he appears to be projecting his desire to control onto you.

An all too familiar story, the faults and bad decisions of some being projected onto their parents so it becomes our fault rather than theirs.

The times I've said that Whiff. It would have been heart breaking of course to be told that for the sake of his marriage, he couldn't see us any more, but at least it would have been honest and courageous. Both qualities we mistakenly believed he had.

I love Mr. S. with all of my heart. My one and only love, but I wouldn't support him if I knew he was wrong. I would never go against my principles for him or anyone else, and I'll never understand why our ES chose to do so unless of course, he never really had any to begin with.

Yes I hope your invitation to tea goes well DSL! How lovely!

That's really sad about your DiL Smileless. I think some people are addicted to trauma, which makes them RUN from stable, loving relationships. It's good you knew her family, so at least you have some insight into her strange behaviour.
It's strange. I always thought ES and I had a good relationship, in fact if you'd asked me a few years ago I'd have said we were close. I have done my best, but it seems like it's never going to be "good enough". When he was with me, I always did my best but he also spent time with his Dad and Step Mum so I'm not sure what the dynamic was like there.

Yes, it would be heartbreaking to be told that they needed to put their marriage first . The honesty and courage needed would at least have said something for their character, even though it would have been terrible. To be just left is plain cruel and cowardly.

Much as I love Mr O as well, I also would tell him if he was wrong. But then you and I are not enablers, Smileless because this type of cowardly behaviour can only function with someone to enable it.

PS I am blocked again on Social media. I am not sure why he keeps looking and blocking, but maybe he's uncomfortable with seeing my Christmas decor and not mourning clothes! I am celebrating Christmas with or without him.

Interesting DerbyshireLass about that man. My brother's second marriage was very rocky. Twice his wife said she didn't want to be married. First time my nephew was one. Then she wanted to be married. They had a daughter 4 years later. When she was 8 decided again she didn't want to be married. They where apart for only a few months the children missed there dad to much. When my nephew was 14 they had another daughter. When she was 8 they split of the final time. The oldest went with him. His ex wife remarried a couple of years later.

My brother met my sister in law 7 years ago after a couple of weeks he said he finally had what me and my husband had. His other half. They have been married 5 years. Mom at his wedding said finally someone who deserves him. I met my sister in law after they had been going out couple of weeks. I told him afterwards finally he found someone for me to love. His first marriage lasted a few years he found his wife in bed with his friend. Second marriage lasted 22 years.

Because they where married over 20 years she was entitled to half his pension how that worked no idea. Luckily they lived in a council house. But he had to pay almost £300 month for his daughter who still lives with her mom. Until she was 18. Finally this year he could stop paying.

I did ask him why he went back and it was because of the children. And he still felt something for his wife but looking back he said it wasn't true love.

But he has that now. They are perfect for eachother. He still calls her his bride. I love them both very much.

That's very messy for your poor brother, Whiff. I'm so glad for him that he met his other half and that you're close to them both. How lovely!

I know when kids are involved its never easy to leave or be left because you always want it to work even more for them. His second wife sounds very troubled and unstable. Must have been a total nightmare! It's lovely that he still calls his wife his bride.

Ah Whiff.......your poor brother. He's been through the mill hasn't he, glad it all ended well for him eventually. Hard for him and the children.

Smiles.....I agree with you - it's not a healthy relationship if you can't be your true authentic self. Enablers aren't being authentic, they are giving in for whatever reasons. In Greek mythology Narcissus had his Echo, today we call them Birds or Flying Monkeys.

My dad was a Narc my mum was his enabler. I always used to say that she made the bullets for him to fire. I realise that mum became my dads enabler through fear.....she was scared of him. Didn't make it right though because in my book a parents first duty is to protect and nurture their child, not throw them under the bus to save their own skin.

I have nothing but contempt for enablers. They have no excuse because they know exactly what they are doing. Most narcs, unless they are very high range, have no idea what they are doing because they have no self awareness. They are little better than toddlers because their emotional development is still in its infancy. They don't feel empathy and simply cannot out themeselves in someone else's shoes. Just like a toddler they see themselves as the centre of the universe.

They might know that what they are doing is wrong at one level, they might feel certain vague unease but never guilt or remorse. Because they are driven by narcissism they cannot correct or modify their behaviour, the narcissism won't let them see it is wrong. They can only see their "truth" which of course is errant nonsense because there is only one truth.

I can at times pity a narc, because they are damaged and delusional. , I can't pity enablers, they know exactly what they are doing and don't care. Eventually people see through the narc and they often come to a sad, lonely end. The enabler gets away with it.

My husband had a brief first marriage, he was left in debt in danger of losing his house after a marriage that lasted 10 months. She presented to him as this sad, unloved woman who had had a terrible life and he was her "saviour." When confronted about the money she just left. She'd cancelled the mortgage direct debit, taken money systematically out of the account and hid letters to him from the bank. Of course this was before internet banking and mobile phones so she found it easy to do for a few months. Initially he wouldn't believe it and then the bank manager showed him the evidence.

My husband has a theory about "damaged" people, might apply to your DIL Smileless. He thinks they crave love, all the time and from anyone. Now we can't go through life with everyone we meet immediately loving us so his theory is that the nearest thing they can get to satisfy their need is sympathy. They constantly have to tell people how they have been wronged, how awful their life is and hey presto even people you've just met will sympathise. So in a way they sacrifice one or two people and get sympathy from a large number of people.

My husband's ex worked for the same large organisation as him and true to form she told terrible stories about him and caused lots of trouble. Of course she got lots of sympathy.

I suppose her wanting money was also a symptom and maybe wanting the partner to "prove" their love be cutting off people. She didn't manage that bit.

Could it be that with DIL Smileless, it won't help but it might make it all easier to understand.

It is just a theory and he's not a psychiatrist but when he explained things she did and how they fit the pattern (last time we heard she'd had 3 very short marriages) I could see what he meant.

So sorry to hear your parents were Narc and Enabler, Derbyshiregirl That's also my experience. I too feel sorry for the Narc in their toddler tantrums, but the Enabler never protected me either so I have trouble getting my head around that. Even now, I do things for them and spend time with them out of duty, but am somewhat detached and counting down the time because I am realistic about what they are. I'm not sure that my parent (the enabler) has any compassion either, or how could they not protect their child?

Both of them scapegoated me. Even recently when I said I would not accept blame (for a family thing that is nothing to do with me) they said "Oh well, we have to blame someone" I was stunned into silence, but have taken an emotional step back. They also did scapegoat my ES. I didn't see it at the time, but I do now. It's plain evil what they did, but I believe they are clueless about right and wrong. I used to feel so bad about myself that I actually idealised them and thought I was the bad one, that I deserved everything that happened to me. I even used them as a good example to my kids! How wrong could I have been!?

That's a very good point TheWorriedWell It surely is a symptom. Some people equate money to love, and vice versa. I have never understood this, but it definitely is a thing.

to all you lovely ladies this friday!

Hi everyone I read your posts every day and it’s giving me so much comfort and understanding I too do not look forward to Christmas without DD and GD. She left our home in November last year saying she never wanted to see us again only going down the road to my mothers who I have a very difficult relationship with. Who I feel should have said no that DD should go home and sort things out with us. We don’t even know what we have supposed to have done for her to walk out! I tried to see DD at my mothers but my mother wouldn’t let me in and DD shouted she would call the police!
My DD has her own home now my mother sees her about once a month but is always phoning and texting her. Not that DD answers very often.
I see my mother as the enabler and definitely think my DD has narc tendencies although she would call us narcs and that we were controlling but I do think she was very jealous of the relationship and bond we had with our GD it’s hard not to when your all living under one roof during lockdown my DD liked to sit scrolling through her phone and let us play with GD and when GD wanted to be with us she didn’t like it.

"addicted to trauma" that's very interesting Onward. Looking back, I would say her mum was too. There was always a fall out with some one in fact ES's wife would say that they were always falling out with family, and then making up again.

It's very odd that your son keeps blocking and unblocking you on social media. I think you could be right in that he's hoping to see that you're 'suffering'.

It's taken some time Whiff but at last your brother is happy and it does sound as if he's found his soul mate. I believe there's a soul mate for everyone and how lucky those of us are who find ours.

Our ES is definitely an enabler DSL. I suppose he doesn't see it that way, perhaps thinks he's doing the 'right' thing for the sake of his marriage and the children but it is never right to condone, support and in his case propagate unacceptable behaviour.

Maybe she doesn't know any better, because of her own upbringing, but he does.

There's a lot of sense in what your DH's says theworriedwell. It is relatively easy to get sympathy from people we hardly know and when it's attention that is craved, what better way to go about it.

I agree Nanalouise, your mum should have sent your D back to sort things out and only after her trying, and your mum talking to you to see if there was anything she could do to help, should she have agreed for your D to stay with her, with your D being fully aware that you were and would always be welcome in her (your mum's) home.

I understand though, that the difficult relationship you have with your mum may well have contributed to your mum not handling the situation as well as she should have.

This is the time of year we all find the hardest so it's great to see everyone posting. (((hugs))) for you all x

Nanalouise Smiles is right about your mom she shouldn't have taken sides.

Glad you posted as now you aren't on your own. I assume when you say we you mean your husband or partner. But I have found being able to post here gets how I feel out in the open and know if I couldn't do that I would be a mess.

My brother is protective and when my son decided he didn't want me in their lives. He wanted to go and sort him out. But I said no. Thankfully he did what I asked.

I saw an article yesterday can't remember where but the figures where 1 in 5 adults are estranged from family members in this country.

After you mention the other day Smiles about the American figures that's why it caught me eye.

That's interesting about your DiL's Mother Smileless always falling out with someone. Those kinds of drama's can seem normal to some, sadly. I used to get caught up in those kinds of things, but have gotten better at sidestepping them now and can see that my parents actually thrive on drama. I thrive on peace!

I am enjoying peace that comes from not having my son's manipulations and the horrible things he would say to me. I do miss being a GP and I miss the nice bits about my ES, but I really don't miss the way he treated me. It's so sad realising your ES is an enabler Smileless. I think it's my DiL who is the enabler, but the effects are the same.

TheWorriedWell I would also say that "some people" crave attention, not help. They don't want to change their behaviour or make healthy choices, they just want love and attention (and it's a one way street!)

That's so nice of your brother Whiff You're so lucky having such a wonderful brother! My brother is of the type that "doesnt get involved" and does what is easiest for him. Probably an enabler. I don't believe anyone is truly neutral.

That's a shocking figure 1 in 5 estranged! My ES didn't just estrange me, but the whole family.

"1 in 5" it's like a plague isn't it Whiffagainst which there is no protection and if you 'catch' it, no cure.

I had my dearest friend, her son and his fiance here pre Covid for a short break. Her son grew up with ES, they were very close in age and spent a lot of time together.

When they were here, he asked me if I thought ES would recognise him now. I said I thought he might, and asked why he wanted to know.

He said he was tempted to go and knock on his door and when he opened it, lay him out and if that he didn't recognise him, he'd tell him who he is.

I thanked him for his support but said I'd rather he didn't. Seeing your post reminded me of how protective he is of me.

I've known from the beginning that he's an enabler Onward and if we were in contact would have told him so, which explains why we're not!!

Oh Smileless, I'm so sorry So nice that your friend's son was so proective! Isn't it interesting that other people seem to have a clear idea of how to behave and yet our own kids seem to either have no empathy or are too selfish/stuck in their ways/brainwashed to actually relate!

They can try to ignore us but they will never forget us. It's so sad he's an enabler.

A relative who’s in regular contact with our EC (although they don’t know we know) has asked to come and stay with us soon en route elsewhere. Tbh I’m dreading the visit. The subject has been avoided previously but I have a sense they will bring it up…want to tell us they are seeing them, not to gloat but to be transparent. How do we deal with this? I feel their involvement has made things much worse for us, and EC is using them to hurt us further. The relative has few friends so clearly benefits from taking our place as surrogate parent/gp.