SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

Socksandocks01 Nothing to feel embarrassed about. I do wonder if it is more to do with not having the words to express how one feels or thinks? There are no words to describe it really. Hence, you keep quiet. How do you describe the breaking of your heart?

I don't know love0c, all the words you can think of don't come close do they.

Had a really good choir practice last night. Our main concert is in just a couple of weeks and people are paying to here us and others sing!! I'm feeling nervously excited as apart from leading the singing with a friend in church, it's been years since I sang in front of an audience, let alone a paying one.

Just hope it doesn't get cancelled as we've put so much hard work in already.

Look forward to it Smileless! doubt it will be cancelled. Paying to hear me sing? Never! Pay to not hear me? Very likely!! Ha ha. You enjoy

Good luck with your concert Smileless I'm sure it will bring you and the folk listening great joy at Christmas time.

Interesting post DBL

Socks you have nothing to be ashamed about. It's our children that should feel the shame but I doubt they do.

Trying describe heartbreak is hard. With my husband some how it's easier to describe how I feel about him dieing. I feel half of me is missing. I haven't felt whole since he died and never will. It's not just a husband I lost but all the other things he meant to me. Especially as he was the only person in the whole world that knew me inside and out. The only person I felt totally at ease and safe with. No matter what I said or did he was steadfast in his love for me.

With children you can't do that. And you don't have that nor should you. You bring them up the best you can with plenty of love and attention and good values and hope for the best.

You have to let them fly. And even when you know they have or making a mistake you can't say anything. Or they will class it as interfering. So you have to let them make mistakes and only help if they ask. I don't mean financial but advice if they ask for it. And if they do ask you have to careful what you say . When really you want to say I knew your where making a mistake. Or what the hell where you thinking.

When your child turns against you it's hard to believe it's the child you raised. My son was so loving and caring . Where did he go and why did he change into someone who was cruel and cowardly . ???.

Enough of that.

Smiles you have a beautiful speaking voice and your singing voice must heavenly. Once you start singing any nerves will go and you will enjoy yourself. Mr S will be there cheering you on.

I have one of my children here for Christmas with their partner. One will be at his in laws, the other two have their in laws staying with them. The 3 of them have had every Christmas with in laws since they met their partner. I will see them at some point in December, I couldn't cope with them all on Christmas Day, it will be hectic enough with the house full for most of the week before Christmas and between Christmas and New Year. I understand DsIL want to be with their parents, my daughter wants to be home as well.

If everyone was here for Christmas it would be 16 of us, don't know where I'd put them. One year we had them all down between Christmas and New Year and had to book rooms at a local hotel but they had all their meals here. I don't particularly want to cook for 16.

I've been wrapping presents and don't know why I seem to have so many as I'm mainly giving cash. GS who is living here wants money, don't all teenagers, but as it is his first Christmas not at home I want him to have stuff to unwrap as well. We also have birthdays within days of Christmas so it is
busy between Christmas and New Year.

I'm torn about cards for neighbours. In our cul de sac we have always done cards but last year I didn't. I was hurt that they had a party on nextdoor's drive for VE day and we were left out. We have never quite been accepted, DH thinks it is his colour, I used to think he was paranoid but last year a couple of things were said that made me realise he was right. None of my children live near enough for us to be able to see them in lockdown and we had very little social contact so to see them and hear them out partying was very hurtful. Do I let it go and send cards or just ignore them?

Thanks everyone for your encouragement.

Very few presents for us to buy and wrap. Each other of course, the dogs (already bought theirs) and the girls next door. The cat has a new bed which I'll give him on Christmas day, not that he'll notice. The dogs give us as much enjoyment as they receive with their pressies, wrapping paper and anything else they cam get hold of, whether they should have it or not.

I can understand you and your DH being hurt theworriedwell, a very insensitive thing to do especially as you couldn't be unaware that the party was taking place.

I'd give them all a card and if you don't get any in return then don't bother next year.

Worried we’ll, wasn’t tge party when they shouldn’t be mingling?
I would send the cards just this year.

I'm so behind with the thread, but just popped on to say (belatedly) DSL that look of jealousy you mentioned from your DiL is so sad. I hope things improve now that you've carved out Christmas day to spend with your other son. I also wanted to say that in my case it was not my DiL who was insanely jealous It was my ES.

Unbelievable how I've always been there for him , but as soon as he gave me a Grandchild HE became jealous of everyone who his child related to who isn't HIM. It's so selfish of him and so sad for his child, to be segregated from everyone else who cares for him because my ES can't share. Ever since you mentioned the jealousy DSL I meant to pop back and say that it has struck a chord. If he can't have ALL my attention he's going to punish me. That also sounds a bit like your son Whiff when he was upset you moved nearer to your daughter (If I'm remembering correctly?)

The green eyed monster is very destructive!

PS When they lived with us for a while, My always seemed happy for me to help with the baby - often she'd be working from home and the baby would cry, so I'd offer to take him and she was happy to finish what she was doing uninterrupted. My ES usually came downstairs after the baby was happy- and glared at me. I don't know how he turned out so selfish/insecure. I literally couldnt have given him more attention as a small child, himself. Perhaps I spoilt him.

Ooops I meant my DiL.

I've been planning my pets gifts too Smileless I'm thinking some catnip toys and new beds Like you, we have a lot of love and fun from our pets to look forwards to every day. If only children could be as faithful, loyal and loving as our furry friends!

Don't know if I'm right but I think jealousy is perhaps the most destructive of all human emotions, it's certainly the most ugly.

Re the link I promised...the podcasts are called Reconnection Club. They are free in you tube. There is a website but you have to pay to join, so I didn't bother, ?. Well DIL did say I was cheap. Lol.

I don't agree with everything she says but I did find some of the podcasts interesting. I guess you just need to take what you think is applicable to you.

Feeling quite grim today after my jab so just taking it easy now.

Yes, it's very ugly DSL Thanks for the link. I've been meaning to get back here and reply to what you wrote about jealousy for days! LOL I'm sure you're not cheap at all, from what I've read- she sounds grabby!!

Oh I'm sorry you're feeling grim after your jab

Can anyone else identify with such a jealous son or shed any light on this? I really am starting to think that it's the Green eyed monster who has gotten hold of my son! But jealous of what? I've always given him everything I could. All I can think is maybe I've spoilt him. I can't think of anything else. I have produced a monster. HELP.

I think after all my years of posting here and previously elsewhere on EP sites, your son being the one exhibiting such extreme jealousy, in relation to his mother becoming close to others in his life, including his own child, is the first case I've come across Onward.

I honestly don't think that whether or not you spoiled him, I mean who hasn't spoiled their children from time to time, has anything to do with it.

IMO when it comes to sabotaging relationships it's insecurity, but why and where that comes from when their childhood has been loving, caring and supportive, who can say.

Jealousy isn't known as 'the green eyed monster' for nothing. It's an incredibly destructive emotion, so often destroying the very thing(s) it craves.

The problem with jealousy is that it knows no boundaries. Jealousy of your wife/husband's relationship with family and friends. Jealousy of your child(ren) being close to anyone other than you. Their other parent, GP, extended family members and when they're old enough their GF's/BF's.

This is my biggest fear for our GC, their mother's jealousy, especially as our ES, their father appears to have no back bone when it comes to doing the right thing.

Hope you're feeling a little better DSL. Make sure you take it easy x.

You haven't created a monster. You are not responsible for his behaviour and the decisions he makes as an adult; he is.

Wow, thanks for that confirmation Smileless. I mean, I am stunned because he has no reason to be jealous (that I can think of) apart from standard Middle Child Syndrome, that is. But, what DSL shared really struck a chord in me and I realised it's his problem.

DiL hasn't seemed jealous and often seemed happy to give me baby GC because she was busy with her work and I never saw a shred of jealousy in her (she might be good at hiding it though?)

Unfortunately I think my ES would be jealous of whoever I might be spending time with as he has said horrible things about my friends before. I think you're right Smileless that it probably is caused by insecurity. Insecurity would also fit with him trying to control me (and control his wife). Sad, but accurate.

I was a stay at home Mum and can't think of anything I could have done to make him more secure- and even if there was something it's too late to tuck him back in my tummy and try a second time. I hope he sees he's wrecking his child's right to be loved by a wider family and to have friends and a normal life with people in it!

I truly hope for your GC Smileless that their genes skip a generation and they take after you and Mr S. Everyone tells me I'm like my GP, even though I barely got to see them that much.

Thanks so much for reminding me that I'm not responsible for his (bad) behaviour. He is. YES! I suppose I have been searching myself and blaming myself but cannot think of a way I could have done any better.

Onward my son and daughter had both wanted me to move by them for years. He was happy I live closer to my daughter. Because she doesn't work . And he works long hours and could only help me when it was his days off.

But one time my daughter was away. And my seizures when out of control. And my son even though had had done a 10 hour shift took me to A&E at 5pm I got home at 4.30am. He had to take a day off work unpaid because he need sleep before he was safe to do his job. Where did that loving and caring man go?.

I think the problem is my daughter in law doesn't like me being 40 mins by car from them . She was happy when I was 3 hours away and only saw them every few months.

Once I moved here my son and his 2 eldest came every week. Only saw my daughter in law 3 times last time boxing day 2019. I was never invited to their house once I moved here. My brother thinks she was jealous of the fact my grandson's loved me and got excited then they knew they where coming to nannies.

But it was my son who wrote the email and the letter.

There was no jealousy between my son and daughter. My daughter has washed her hands of her brother not because of the email he sent her but because of the way he has treated me.

My daughter and daughter in law never liked eachother from when they first met 17 years ago. But when we where all together they where civil to eachother. But I always knew they couldn't stand the sight of eachother.

I am not a jealous person so have a hard time trying to understand how people can be jealous of eachother.

I think it all comes back to my upbringing. Because my parents where the people they where . We didn't have expense things but the best they could afford. We where never spoilt with things but love and attention yes we where spoilt with that.

oops that last bit was for you Onward; no idea how it got there.

Allsorts

Worried we’ll, wasn’t tge party when they shouldn’t be mingling?
I would send the cards just this year.

It was in the front garden and double drive so as we are a small cul de sac, just 9 houses and bungalows and 3 of them are widows living alone I think they were OK as able to distance.

As I didn't send them last year I'm not sure they will bother, I'm thinking of having cards for them but waiting to see if they send them. It seems so petty, I feel a bit ashamed as I'm not normally one to take offence but I was so hurt, the message was all about us all being in it together and community and supporting each other and it was so blatant. Talk about rubbing your nose in it, it would have been less obvious if they'd done it in the backgarden because we are at the turning point in the cul de sac so their back garden is sort of hidden from our house.

I'm really slow to anger and very forgiving but there is a point where if I'm pushed over it then that is it. I do bear a grudge if I get to that point.

They annoyed me last Christmas as well, we couldn't have family here as they all live too far away for a day visit which was fine but one of mine is a nurse and they got covid at Christmas so I was very worried. All the houses round us had visitors staying which wasn't allowed. Normally I'm not bothered what others do but I was feeling a bit sensitive about covid and people breaking rules. Two of mine have had it now, a nurse and a teacher and both worked all through lockdown.

Not exactly the spirit of Christmas. I must try to put it behind me.

Onward I'm a middle child and I think it is a difficult position. My big sister was perfect, very clever and never any trouble, I was livelier not naughty but never sitting down and then I found boys! My little brother was old beyond his years and he was the baby and the only boy so he was always special. I always felt I was a bit of a let down, I was "supposed" to be a boy as my dad wanted a son and my mum was told not to have any more. I was given the female version of my dad's name and was a tomboy when young, I think I was trying to be the boy he wanted. Then my brother came along as a surprise and it was, "Oh what can we call him, we can't call him after his dad now because of Worried."

A friend of mine was a middle one but she said her family arranged it much better, her big brother was the first so he was special, she was the only girl so she was special, her younger brother was the baby so he was special. She told me that when she was about 11 and I think it is quite perceptive for a child.

I don't know if your son is the only boy but maybe being a middle one is something to do with it. I've got a very independent nature so I don't think it affected me much, perhaps at that difficult age when you hit puberty and everything is an issue but not otherwise.

Strangely as an adult I was closest to my mum, my dad died when I was a child.

I don't think spoiling children is much of an issue, my granny was a very wise old woman and she used to say, "You can't spoil a good child with love." I tend to think she's right.

Here's hoping for a happy Christmas for everyone.

Whiff maybe you've hit on it, maybe I get on with my kids' partners because I'm a long drive away. That's an interesting thought. I often envy people with their grown up children nearby but maybe it isn't always a good thing.

Whiff, it sounds like you did all the right things. I too believed in giving them all the love and attention. But, somehow it has not been enough for my ES.

Whiff I'm so sorry for your pain and the way your son has behaved. It sounds completely logical for you to live nearer your Daughter as she's always available for you and you don't want your son to need to take time off work. You'd think he would be pleased that he doesn't need to, that his sister would take care of you...I'd have thought his wife would be pleased that he didn't have to take time off work, too. Such a sad situation!

I'm not a jealous person either, so I also have trouble understanding those who are.

I appreciate what you said Smileless. It's helpful, really just to have someone to say it's his responsibility for his behaviour. I know it is, really. But it's so easy to get blamed by people.

TheWorriedWell To be honest, I lived with my son's girlfriend before they split and also his wife and I never had a problem with either of them. He's always chosen nice girls and we've had a good relationship. The problem has been that he can not stand us getting along. I even asked him once "would you rather we hated each other?" and he said "YES!" I was stunned because I would have thought he would have been pleased that we were harmonious. I mean, who wants to get stuck with two women arguing?

Probably distance is a good thing, depending on who it is. We probably naturally get along with some people more than others.

It's good you do get along with your kids partners TheWorriedWell. I think it definitely helps. I'm sorry for the loss of your Dad when you were a child. That must have been really hard!
It's not a gender thing in my family, all my kids are boys. Sibling rivalry might be worse when all the kids are the same gender though? I'm not really sure.
Something I thought about doing is, not sending them cards or a gift, but having a card with cash here in case they are to pop in unexpectedly. If they don't I will spend the cash- but at least if they do turn up they will have something here.

My brother was also the Golden Boy sigh so I know how you feel!

PS Just wanted to add, my son actually asked me to be horrible to his wife When I refused, he started freezing me out. The thing is, they were living with us at the time- and it's just not me to behave like that.

I'm genuinely sorry for him if he's so insecure that he actually wants to have people arguing and upset instead of living in harmony- but now, he's left my life and I have to say it's a lot more peaceful. I hope he gets therapy so he stops causing trouble for everyone else and that he learns that control is not love.

Your son's behaviour does seem strange Onward. Men normally like the women in their lives to get on in my experience, makes life easier for them. My boys fought like anything as kids but they were close, they aren't really close now which is sad. Two of the wives don't like each other which has split them up to a great extent. Third DIL is very easy going and gets on with everyone. People really do vary don't they.

From my children's partners I'm actually closest to my SIL. I suppose with 3 sons I'm used to men around and he has no parents, they both died young and he has been alone since his teens. I like spoiling him and I think he likes being spoiled so we get on. He told my DD that if they ever divorce he's having me in the settlement. It really made me smile.

My exDIL has always been difficult but we managed to rub along. I really think once the GC are adults we won't have any contact, I can't imagine either of us wanting it.

They are a mixed bunch aren't they.

Onward I didn't deliberately decided to live closer to my daughter. I don't want any one to think I choose her over my son.

I needed to live in a bungalow. I knew which where the nice areas to live and choose 20 bungalow's I liked . My children whittled the them down to ones that where in areas which had good transport as I don't drive.

I didn't look in the areas my children lived. I choose 6 to view after viewing my bungalow which was the 3rd knew this was the one. But viewed 1 afterwards but this was the one. My offer was accepted so cancelled the other viewings.

It just happened I lived just over 10 mins in the car from my daughter . In fact they have moved closer to me as they moved house beginning of the year.

My children wanted me to live nearer to one of them. In fact the 4th bungalow I viewed would have only been 15 mins away from my son. But had already set my heart on this one.

My only worry moving was would I like the neighbours . But needn't have worried as they are lovely. I should have know as the people in this part of the north west are lovely.

Worriedwell sorry about your neighbours. My daughter in law is mixed race and my son accused me of being racist in his email. Which shocked me to the core . The only IST I am is atheist. I have never discriminated against anyone my whole life. I treat people as I want to be treated. It doesn't matter to to me what religion ,nationally or colour anyone is . The only people that annoy me are people who can work that won't ,anti vaccine and these environment protesters who stop people going about their day lives by doing stupid things like gluing themselves to the road etc.

My mom and dad where racists but think that was down to their generation.

My brother laughed when I showed him the email and letter. Especially the racist part. I loved my daughter in law but she killed that love with one sentence she wrote on Reddit FIL died to get away from MIL. When I found that out the love died as I don't know how she could have been so wicked to write that. She didn't even know my husband. He died in agony from cancer unable to breath and she knows that.

But I don't hate her or my son. Had enough of that with my in laws as I have said before. Don't want nor need hate in my life . It's a destructive emotion .

I bet your husband has always been the first to offer help if one of your neighbours needed it. My husband was. We had been neighbours with the one side for 20 years and when my husband died the whole road apart from them sent a sympathy card . He had helped him put up a fence with our son and lent him tools. No even when they saw me did they say sorry to hear he had died. So when his dad died I made a point of taking a card but knocked the door and handed them the card. Sounds petty but I wanted to rub in that I am a better person than they are.

As per usual never no how to end my ramble . There's an old saying 'there's nought so queer as folk' .