SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

Sweet dreams to you too Whiff. You haven't rambled on at all. It does us good to get some of it out for others to hear our side of the story. I've battled through today getting close to tears but I hope I can make a better more tranquil life for myself without their drama. They cut people off regularly. Now it's my turn. I reckon I'm probably better off without them as I get older. Xx

If I had Christmas on my own I would probably go to church, walking both ways for some fresh air. I would probably have a curry, for dinner, followed by lemon tart, then chocolate. . Anything I wanted to watch on tv. I always loved Christmas but my husband died after a grim time at Christmas, so it’s always been with mixed feelings since then., I have been fortunate always had Christmas with my son and family but I know they would like to go away one year and I encourage them to do it.

So many sad stories on here. I often have tears in my eyes when I read how badly you have all been treated.

God only knows their motives. I certainly don't trust my son and DIL. I have no faith in them whatsoever,

I think that our offsprings narc partners do know exactly what they are doing, it's all so cold and calculating. Narcs have no sense of empathy, they are the centre of the universe and everything revolves around them. They don't give a stuff about anyone else but themselves, not their partners and sometimes not even their own children.

Our errant offspring just get brainwashed and sucked into the maelstrom that the narcs have created. I done think they even realise what's happening to them. They are so cowed and browbeaten they can barely function. They blindly follow where the narc leads, too terrified to cross them or, heaven forbid, dare they "disobey". They knkw they will be punished if they do. They are like lambs to the slaughter. Of course they will never admit it, instead they will project it all back to us......it's all our fault you see. Look what WE made them do. They are the victims, we are the perpetrators.

Well I'm rapidly losing patience with my son. I can't believe that someone with his intelligence could fall for it. I have made allowances for him but as time goes by, I find myself getting angrier by the day. For two pins I feel like telling my son to sling his hook.

What gives our cowardly selfish kids the right to inflict so much pain and heartache to their parents, siblings and extended families. My foolish son is going to have to tread very warily because if he's not careful, one of these days, I'm going to give him an almighty ear bashing. My patience is wearing very thin now.

It's bad enough the way I've been treated because I can understand that for DIL it's a power struggle. She is jealous and possessive and I'm her primary target because she perceives me as a threat. But his poor brother has done absolutely nothing to warrant the way he has been cold shouldered, he does not represent any kind of threat. What kind of demented banshee is jealous of her husbands brother.......

The poor thing is just baffled and, although he says nothing, I can tell he's really hurt. Just today he asked me if I had from his brother. Of course the answer is no....

For the last two weeks I made a point of trying to engage with my son, sending him a text. He did reply but only one text back and with no attempt to expand the conversation, just a couple of lines saying the absolute bare minimum, closing down the communication. Never asked how I was, what was happening, never asked after his brother. He is just completely disinterested in anyone else but himself. Utterly self absorbed. Just like his delightful wife. She's done that to him. She's probably still monitoring his phone,

As a result I have decided that I will not text him this week. I'm going to wait and see whether or not he deigns to contact me.

I am so sick of it all.

socks.....I've been near to tears today too. Sending you (all of you) hugs and ?

Just had a thought.....my son is back working in his office. He could contact me without his wife knowing.......so obviously he isn't bothered is he. ?.

Allsorts - I think your suggestion for a Christmas by oneself sounds fabulous! Because let’s face it, although we get caught up in the fantasy of everyone else having wonderful family gatherings, the reality is these are often fraught with tensions. If estrangement has taught me one thing it’s that I can do without ongoing drama in my life. I’d love to be reconciled with our EC, but because of who they are, that would come with criticism and fault finding. EC has never responded to any attempts to make contact, including me writing a letter apologising for what I got wrong. So I now respect their wishes and for 2 years have not made any contact, which is why I now send no birthday or Christmas gifts. To be honest having made the decision has made things easier - I no longer agonise over what to get them, and it stops the issue of estrangement coming into sharp, painful focus at various points in the year. But like others have posted, it seems madness that they have walked away from a loving extended family. Our gc are being denied so much, as their family unit is now just themselves. There are no in-laws. I hope they are happy…..but honestly can’t believe anyone can be who inflicts such pain on parents who are getting on in years. Really can’t get my head round why they choose no contact rather than very low contact. It might not be a satisfying relationship but has to be better than the cruelty of cutting people who love you out of your life. Perhaps a previous poster who asked if they lacked empathy is right….only someone lacking in empathy could do this and deny their parents any opportunity to try and make amends. Rant for tonight now over! Sorry there are some feeling tearful on here today. I try to remember the acute feelings will pass, and soon we’ll feel steady and secure once more. Take care everyone.

Wise words as always from all of you. I have never and never will understand how a wife can be jealous of her husband's mother. It's his mother not lover.

I miss my son and grandson's every day but having zero contact all this time has helped me cope. I couldn't put up with what some of you are going through. I know my limits.

My on going health saga continues. When at the AF clinic last week asked about taking the extra tablet for nerve pain . I am in constant pain with my left arm and leg which with the help of painkillers I tolerate the pain but every now and then have a pain flare up in either limb very really both together. Had it for getting close to 34 years. So I am used to it.

The AF nurse said he would ask the consultant but to speak to my GP. Which I did on Monday and decided unless I can't stand the pain I wouldn't take the extra tablet. Not long after AF clinic phoned asking me to go in yesterday.

The consultant has decided because my nerve pain tablet helps me and been on it for over 30 years to change my heart tablet. So had to stop my heart tablet yesterday. They are sending a letter to my GP so he can prescribe the new one for me and have to start it next week. As GP's can prescribe the new tablet will go to AF clinic in 3 weeks and if I am ok with it they will discharge me from their care . The heart tablet I was on could only be prescribed by the hospital and needed close monitoring.

It's funny because I feel really well at the moment. My exercise classes are doing me good. Had a new kitchen put in 2 years ago not long after I moved here. And had a dishwasher my first. But could never bend low enough to put the salt in when it ran out. My daughter did it for me. The light came on and thought could I do it myself. And I could bend low enough and put the salt in. I felt like I won a gold ?. Silly I know but it's a victory so I will take those where I can.

There are now 10 of us in the class now. For months it was just 2 of us. We have a good workout and l laugh most of the time . Some of the things the others come out with is hilarious.
Mind you laughter works your facial muscles extra workout. Then after a hour tea and biscuits.

My husband would laugh his socks off me loving exercise. Having a workout today as I am going to my daughter's. My grandson's are my instructors ?.

Hope everyone feels better in themselves today. ?

Whiff, you seem to be doing really well, it sounds as if your exercise class is help enormously plus your d and family as your support network, good news.
Spring, you are in my situation, it’s better when you know things won’t change as you don’t keep hoping, that underlying sadness is still there under the surface.
Derbyshire, you say you can’t understand your son, they go along with everything for a quiet life, the dil holds all the cards, their children, home they have made, they are not going to risk all that and end up with half of everything and not being with their children, you don’t know what spin your dil puts on things to make you look bad. It’s jealousy and control, but the men don’t or won’t see it. I don’t have your problem, it my d, who severed contact, she obviously didn’t think I did much of a job of raising her, she seems very bitter towards me and tge rest of family but could or never say why.
We just have to do the best we can with what we have.

Allsorts. I do understand why my son is behaving the way he is. You're right she does hold all the cards. He has lost all his power.

What I meant was I can't understand is that he can be so blind as to what he will be doing to his children. It's his duty to protect them. I speak from experience here. My father was a narc and my mother stood by and did nothing to protect me. That's why I am so frustrated and concerned. And yes, increasingly more angry,

Now that I have made it my business to learn more about narcissism I know exactly how she controls him and even how she got her claws into him in the first place. I know exactly what she did but it sounds so fantastical that I don't usually tell people. A lot of people would say it is my imagination working overtime but I just know I'm right

When she came into his life it was immediately after his fathers death and he was very vulnerable. She came to work in his office, spotted her prey and got to work.

At first I was just so pleased that he had met someone and seemed happy again. Now I realise that she used love bombing and trauma bonding. Classic narc techniques.

He was a real catch, handsome, popular, intelligent, on a great career path, and thanks to his dad and I giving him the deposit on his house, financially secure, She was on to a good thing.....

She did her homework, found out about my husbands illness and then on their first date got my son to take her to the cinema to see "The Theory of Everything". Cold, calculating and deliberate. Ruthlessly exploiting my sons weak spot.

I know it sounds unbelievable but since I've studied narc behaviour I know it's true. She is charismatic, beautiful, and exotic. He was lonely and vulnerable, missing his dad, but bottling it all up and refusing help or counselling. He was ripe for the plucking and that's just what she did.

I know some people will think it's far fetched but I believe it is exactly how she hooked him. She became his "saviour", his rescuing Dark Angel.

I am angry with myself for not spotting my sons vulnerability and helping him more but tbh I was prostrate with grief myself and in no fit state to help anyone. And you can't turn back time.

What really shocks me is how quickly he has fallen so low. He's aged 10 years in the past year. Now that the discarding phase has begun its as if she is sucking the lifeblood out of him.

But there's nothing anyone can do.

It must be very hard for you Allsorts when it is your own daughter who has turned on you. You must be heartbroken,

I console myself that it is DIL's malevolence that is the root cause of my sons distancing himself from his family. I don't think this would have happened without her influence. If he had married someone "normal" and not a narcissist I doubt he would be in the mess in which he now finds himself.

Hey ho..... I will do what I can to keep our relationship limping along for as long as I can. I wont abandon him to his fate. I wont jump, I will wait until I'm pushed.

My other son and I will hopefully be around to help him pick up the pieces and put his life back together when the inevitable happens. It's not much but it is all we can do.

I might not ever see the day, I may be dead long before it happens but one day they will divorce and he will be free again.

Hello all!

I have now been estranged from my daughter for 7 years. I don’t know what I have done yet she doesn’t want any contact with me at all. I have tried phoning - no answer, texting - no answer, writing - no answer. My eldest son is in contact with her and he says that she is telling everyone that she had a terrible childhood. I did the best I could but I was with an abusive person. He is there dad and never touched them at all. My daughter hasn’t seen or spoken to him since 2002. I am at a loss. Will I die and never see her again?

I'm seeing a pattern here. I can see parts of my situation in the posts here. My ES tells everyone he had a bad childhood yet he seemed relaxed and happy. I didn't allow him to punch his younger brother and expected him to have more sense as he wS 4 yrs older. But I too started having problems with my son once he met his future wife. She said she had been neglected etc. But I didn't expect my adult granddaughter to take up the baton against me. Think u shall read up on narcs

Think I shall read up on narcs

Purplepixie sorry this has happened to you. 7 years is a long time. I hope you can be at peace with what's she done. And let go . Not easy. I have said having no contact with my son has made it easier for me . He wanted zero contact he has got it. I think he didn't think I would agree to it. Bet he was shocked I haven't tried to contact him.

I will most likely die and never have seen my son or 3 grandson's again. But do not intend to kick the bucket anytime soon . There is still to much I want to do with my life. Even though my body is fighting against me. But it wouldn't win?.

Your son must be a comfort to you. It's awful how our estranged children rewrite their childhoods to suit them. Is it to get sympathy I wonder? Or are they playing a one upmanship with people they know. Who had the worst childhood. From my son's email he has rewritten things since his dad died. Things that never happened or things I said or did.

They are the losers by doing this. Makes me wonder what they will tell my grandson's about me if they ask. Only hope he doesn't blacken his dad's memory. Or say he had a rotten childhood because he didn't.

You are amongst friends here. Who will help ,support and understand what you are going through.

Posting for the first time takes a lot of courage. I hope you are glad you did. Joining the ranks of Warrior Queens. Have a lot of wobbles to battle through but will win the war in the end. ?

I can't believe some of the things I read on here, it's shocking how our offspring can do these things. I am really shocked how your son has treated you Whiff, I hope your health sorts itself out, the fact that you exercise will help massively. I am not making excuses for any of them but when I think back about my Mum being on her own every Christmas after Dad died I feel so guilty now, I used to visit her then come home and never give it another thought, admittedly, I did have 5 children to see to and a Husband who worked shifts so my hands were full but I am consumed with guilt now. They will all see the error of their ways but, as it is with me, it will be too late to say sorry.

Elless my heart goes out to you. We lived 15 doors away from our ES and only GC for four years. Five years ago we moved and it was the best thing we could have done.

I couldn't sleep, couldn't bear to go out in case I saw them, it was like having my life and the will to live being drained out of me day after day.

The same kind of "demented banshee" our ES is married too DSL. I'm 100% certain if our DS wasn't on the other side of the world in Aus., there would be no contact there either.

When we were first estranged it suited her to be in contact, as they both worked on our DS, trying to turn him against us with their lies.

I'm afraid you're right about your son. He could contact you while he's at work and she'd never know. Such is the degree of control they have over our sons; it's frightening. Our ES used to 'phone me during his lunch break and when he was walking the dog but of course that stopped too in the end. The last time I saw him face to face, with tears streaming down my face and simply saying "..... please" with my arms out stretched toward him, was on their door step.

We could hear here banging doors and swearing. He looked at me and said "we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble". We haven't spoken to each other since. We feel as you do, if he hadn't married her or someone just like her, this would never have happened, that said I hold him ultimately responsible. The devil himself couldn't have made me treat someone I loved the way he's treated us.

Allsorts we did our best, it's all we could have done and I doubt they'll do as well when they can so callously and it seem so easily throw away the very people who loved and cared for them.

Well Purplepixie FWIW if your D's was that bad, why has she never spoken to you about it or at the very least put her reasons for estranging you in writing. I suspect it's because she knows this isn't true.

Our ES said some things to Mr. S. that were total BS, things about me that he would never and will never say to my face because he knows they're untrue. He didn't even put them in any of the vile emails he sent which just shows how fearful he was of accusing me directly. Rightly so, to quote Yoda "be afraid, be very afraid".

Reading up about narcissists is something to consider Socksandsocks as you may well find it helps you. Knowing what they are like and are capable of is frightening but is also, for those of us estranged, strangely comforting because there's quite simply nothing you can do. You can't beat them at the sick and cruel games they play. The only way to win the game is to stop playing.

We win by rebuilding our lives, by finding peace and happiness and by realising that there is life after estrangement.

I sometimes wonder that too Whiff. Do they realise what they have done? Do they regret it? Is pride preventing them from getting in touch or fear? Fear how those who control them will respond and/or fear that for us it is too late.

We love them, we wish them well but don't want them in our lives again. The trust has been destroyed and our own fear, fear that they'll do it again and fear that the next time it will destroy us makes the risk to us too great.

So my fellow Warrior Queens, the new thread has got off to a tremendous start. Every day, we share the battles we have won because every day we survive without them is a battle won.

Oh Lord Smiles.....I have just read your post and I have tears steaming down my face. To think of you on his doorstep, arms outstretched and pleading. There are just no words to describe how utterly despicable that was.

I know our sons are brainwashed but I would like to think that in a situation like that I would have found the strength and courage to stand up to my persecutor. I am gentle soul and not very good at confrontation but even I can be pushed too far.

Here's a true story........

When my I was 15 my dad beat me up. Needless to say I left home the minute I could. When I was 25 and visiting my parents he threatened to give my sister who was 14 "a good hiding".

I rounded on him.......I said "You do and I will be contacting social services". He backed down but started jeering "you wouldn't dare". I just shrugged and said "watch me, because I remember the last time you gave one of your daughters a good hiding". He stormed out of the house in a huff but he never raised a finger to my sister.

What our sons can't see is that each time they cave in and give their power away it only gives their tormentors more satisfaction, more power. They get their kicks by tormenting those they perceive as weaker than them or inferior to them

Our narc DILs will continue to tighten the screw and the punishments will only get worse Kowtowing and appeasement is not the way to handle these situations.

The bottom line is they are bullies but bullies are cowards, stand up to them and more often than not they will crumble. There is a risk of course that things could get physical. I am aware that some women do use physical violence against men.

But as you so rightly say the ONLY away to win with a narcissist is not to play the game. To cut all contact. Extremely difficult when there are children.

Another true story.........

A man I know I married a narc. He too was blind until one day he came home early from work to find his wife beating one of the children with a sweeping brush. He got full custody.

I called my DIL out and she backed down. Since then I have had peace. God only knows what she dishes out to my son as a result. I am no longer her punchbag so at some point she will have to find another one, most likely my poor hapless son, unless he can reclaim his manhood and take a stand.

All we can hope is that one day they wake up from their stupor and reclaim their lives.

Narcs are capable of all kinds of evil, usually it's verbal and emotional abuse, also often financial abuse but they can and will use violence.

Good Lord Derbyshire - he actually beat you up that is awful. Smiles you crying on your ES doorstep is like when I spoke to my ES not long ago and I cried through the whole conversation while he stood there stone faced - what has happened to these people.

New to this forum. So sad because my adult (50) daughter has become more-or-less non-communicating. I know she is angry with me but I don't know why and can't ask her because it just makes her angrier. Is it better to pretend nothing is going on or to tackle the issue.

Their Medusa wives have turned them to stone......?

Sorry don't mean to be flippant but sometimes humour is my weapon of choice. Indeed often the only one I had, especially against my dad. And privately, just to myself, I often call her Medusa.

Sometimes, the only way I can face dealing with Madam is to remind myself just how ridiculous she is. My youngest son also uses humour. When she has been particularly nasty he will always find something apt or outrageous to say about her. It just cracks me up but he's always bang on the money with his observations.

He spotted her narcissism long before I did. He was just not fooled and he always outwitted his grandfather, my father, too. He just saw straight through him. . My father couldn't manipulate or torment my youngest son, it was water off a ducks back to him. Which is what I now aim for. I'm getting there, slowly becoming impervious to her. Now that I fully see her for what she is it's become much easier, because I no longer question or blame myself. She is what she is and that's all there is to it.

And that knowledge has set me free. She now has no hold over me at all. She knows, I know and it infuriates her. It doesn't bother me one iota. However, what does concern me, is that I strongly suspect that she will take out her frustrations at having no power over me on my son. He will get the brunt of her rage.

That is why I no longer make any attempt to contact them. I let them do the running. Hopefully that way I am less of a threat and he gets a bit of peace.

Sometimes when she's in full flow I just close my eyes and envisage her in 20 years, fat and gone to seed, her beauty ravaged by the venom she carries inside her. I have known her for nearly 7 years now and, whilst she was undeniably a beauty, already she is losing her bloom and I think it's because of the hatred and bitterness in her heart. Unless she has a portrait in her attic eventually her true character will reveal itself on her face,

It did on my fathers. He was very handsome, like a cross between Paul Newman and Steve McQueen but eventually the marks of hatred and bitterness took its toll on his looks. The cruel eyes, the narc stare, the deep naso labial lines, the pinched twisted lips caught in a perpetual sneer. Once he lost his looks his whole world caved in because that's what he had always relied on, his looks and his fake charm. He lost all his power.

Most narcs rely on their looks, charm and charisma. And yes, most of them are undeniably very attractive but it's all superficial. Their fair faces and flattering, fawning charm hide the blackest of hearts. But it all comes out in the end. Eventually the facade breaks down, and the mask slips.

With Madam I am taking the long view......basically give her enough rope. Eventually she will overreach herself and overplay her hand and the whole house of cards will come crashing down. She finally overplayed her hand to me in August, revealing her true colours. The facade came crumbling down and she knows she can't rebuild it with me.

Like I said in a previous post, once you ring a bell, it can't be unrung. Once something has been seen, it can't be unseen.

I am convinced that one fine day our hapless helpless sons will get their lightbulb moment. They will eventually snap out of their trances.

I just hope I'm still around to witness that day.

' And privately, just to myself, I often call her Medusa.'

My eldest son to whom I was estranged years ago, simply turned up on my doorstep one day and said he wanted to talk and we resolved everything, I still struggle with his wife and have as little to do with her as possible but I always say she is a Stepford Wife with Munchausens.

Munchausens. ...??. Aren't we wicked. ?. Still making fun of them a bit does help doesn't it,

Well I've been very good, gave the lawn a much needed haircut. It was very wet and I've churned it up a bit but it really needed doing and I figured it wouldn't get any drier now.

Time for some eats and then put my feet up. I've got my builder coming tomorrow to discuss plans for the final stage of the renovations here. Hoping to start in the new year. One final push and then hopefully come spring I can get it on the market.

I want a fresh start and new life.

Little business doing ok. Couple of good sales this week. Wont make me rich but it's nice way to earn a bit of extra pocket money.

Elless.....So good that your son came to his senses. You must be so happy to have everything resolved. That's lovely.

It's strange because my eldest has mellowed so much with age, whereas the son we are now estranged from has got harder and I cannot relate to him anymore - as you said I love him but I don't like him.

Ah that's so sad, maybe one day he too will see the light. We can but live in hope. In the meantime I guess we just have to soldier on and get through each day as best we can.

I have to admit I feel a lot better today. I think working in the garden helped. I must make sure I get out more, even if it's just a mooch round the charity shops.

I'm getting my covid booster next Wednesday and my flu jab the week after so hopefully I can start getting out and about again.