SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

It brings tears to my eyes too DSL; it was as you say despicable, as was your father's treatment of you. What courage you had to stand up to him to protect your sister. He was like all bullies are, a coward.

Our son's have allowed themselves to be backed into a corner, they may still not realise what they've allowed to happen but one day they will and I hope they do and will eventually be free.

We use humour too, it's preferable to tears isn't it. Honestly some of the things we say and end up laughing about.

I relived that occasion on ES's door step when I read that post from you Elless. Their cruelty is unbelieavable isn't it. How on earth did we manage to raise them.

It's great about your other son, finally seeing sense and showing that it is possible to have a relationship with your parent(s) regardless of what their spouse thinks.

A warm welcome to you Stoic, you are among friends here and I hope that you'll find this thread a comfort as many of us do.

You say your D has become more or less uncommunicative, that she's angry but you don't know why and if you ask her, she'll become even more angry.

Do you pretend nothing is going on or do you tackle it. Ask yourself what you have to lose if you do and what you might gain if you don't. Consider what this situation is doing to your physical and mental well being, the not knowing what the problem is and for how long you can continue with this if nothing changes.

Be honest with yourself and when you are, I think you'll know what you need to do. You can share your thoughts and feelings with us here if that helps.

Had a bad day today, it all gets a bit much. Seen a group of friends today and the conversation came round to Christmas, their Christmas plans and a couple having shopping trips with daughters. Oh well, there’s lots in the same boat.

Stoic A difficult and painful situation for you. I wonder if maybe changing how you approach things might help.

Rather than asking her why she is angry or what you have done perhaps:

You: "Are you angry with me?"
Daughter: "Yes"
You: "What do you want to do about that?"
Daughter: "...whatever she says/shouts at you...."
You: (if shouting)"I am happy to listen when you are ready to tell me. I will not be shouted at though so I am going to leave now"

And leave!
By doing this you are showing a willingness to listen but also setting some boundaries about how you are treated

(if not shouting) ...just listen, really listen, then as below

If your daughter does decide to talk about her reasons for her anger and upset then really listen. Don't argue or justify. Just listen. When she has finished I would suggest thanking her for detailing it all to you, that you would like some time to think very carefully about all that she has said and then you are happy to talk again.

When you have heard her perspective you can decide a way forward hopefully to the benefit of your relationship with your daughter moving forward.

I'm the same alsorts. Innocent remarks or photos of others with their little grandchildren. I've got to hold back the tears and also I wonder if they too will face the same turmoil. I think I should have been selfish I'd have been better thought of. But it's going to be harder as Christmas looms. I'd have staked my life on my adult granddaughter.

That's so brilliant about your exercise class, Whiff. I am glad your nerve pain tablet is helping!
You're doing so well, you Warrior Queen!

Talking about it here has helped me see that it's my son with the control issues. Unless my DiL also has them and they each control each other??? Before she was on the scene he got very angry with me for talking to his girlfriends . I didn't talk to them much, just smiled and said hello when they came round, made small talk etc. One of his ex's used to confide in me because her Mum had MH problems and he was really angry about that. When he demanded that I not talk to his wife AT ALL I was troubled because they were living with us at the time.

Derbyshiregirl I'm so sorry your Dad beat you up but I'm glad you were able to threaten him for your sister's sake. Well done about your business! That's fab! Good time of year for it as well! Great you got out in the garden too! Are you thinking of moving far away from where you are now? A house move sounds great!

Munchausens. ...??

I did some Christmas shopping today. I thought it was black friday .??

I actually thought my ES had Munchenhausens a few years ago!

It’s been more difficult since Covid, when a lot of emphasis has been on families, and the love shown by adult children to their parents. It makes your own situation more poignant .

The only way to win the game is to stop playing - so true Smileless! My goodness, so much that is similar in all our stories. Which is also rather strange if you think about it - like there’s a virus infecting society! We too were never told why the E happened - which leaves you powerless. Another form of control? Will also read up on narcs. Our EC also lived nearby, and it was excruciating to hear news of them from friends. We too decided we needed to move for our sanity, but the very same evening we heard EC had accepted a new job some distance away. And that helped bring some closure - we are v definitely off the pitch now, no longer caught up in games. But still have tough days, and today has been one of them. I fluctuate between feeling ok and able to laugh a bit - to feeling how awful this is, and despairing that it will never go away. Encouraging to hear some reconciliations do happen though. Hope the exercise is still going well Whiff - good for you!

Reading your stories I realise I got of lightly. What some of you have gone through with your childhoods and now to have your children turn on you. The courage you have shown astounds me . You are truly Warrior Queens.

I know how lucky I am to have had a good childhood surrounded by love and still have that love from my family.

What my son has done pales into comparison to what some of you have suffered and are still suffering. I don't have any right to moan about what I am missing. And am grateful for what I have.

Whiff......don't do that, your pain is just as valid as anyone else's. And it's good you had a happy childhood and a loving family. You have been hurt and are still hurting, and anyway it's not a competition. We all have our pain. And you have every right to voice your pain, it's not moaning,

I very rarely talk about my fathers treatment of me. My children don't know. I kept it from them because I didnt want to spoil their chances of having a relationship with their grandparents. I didn't want to influence them but they weren't daft. Children don't miss much do they. They take it all in.

My mum adored my boys which is why I kept up our relationship, despite my father. My mother should have protected me but she was too scared and there were times when I resented her for that but, even so, I couldn't deprive her of her grandchildren. I would never have cut her out of my life. She loved me and was proud of me and my boys loved her. They tolerated their grandfather for her sake, but they didn't really engage with him much if they could help it. They were polite but never got close.

Spring......that's how I feel. It does seem like Estrangement is infecting our society, I had no idea it was on such a scale. I have been really shocked at how many people I know who are in the same boat.

Madgran.....what a brilliant example of how to approach the conversation. I've tried to breach the subject but my son just clammed up and I didn't push it. At some point I will try again.

Hey ho. Builder here tomorrow to discuss the next round of works.

I'm not certain where I will move to yet, probably still fairly local.

Great post Derbyshirelass
Whiff, please don't think of your pain as less important. You need to talk as much as we all do.
Great post Smileless "the only way to win is to stop playing. "
Sometimes I wonder what I was supposed to do? If they thought we would chase after them or beg...??? I have no idea if they even thought of that or if they even thought at all.

Yes it does seem that Estrangement is growing, but it might be this forum giving people the confidence to talk about it! to all you Warrior Queens!

There's no way of knowing if estrangement is becoming more prevalent or if it's because people are becoming increasingly more willing and able to talk about it, maybe it' a combination of the two.

We talk about it which encourages and enables others to join us; a wonderful outcome of this support thread.

Perhaps EAC talk about it too and that 'encourages' others to do the same. 'My parent(s), p's.i.l. are a pain in the arse. Estrange them, that's what we did'. A terrifying thought but one that should be considered none the less.

This is the hardest time of the year IMO Allsorts. There's no getting away from thinking about those families where GP's are welcomed, loved and cared for by their AC. The time of year when we on here need one another the most.

I think we're all of the same generation Spring and I've often wondered if there was something in the water when we had our children but that said, thank God they're not all the same are they.

We feel your pain Whiff just as you feel ours. Your son's behaviour is cruel and cowardly, it doesn't get any worse than that.

You maintained your relationship for your mum and your children DSL. You tolerated your father for the sake of others, putting yourself second. There are some who wouldn't have done so. Who, despite knowing that their mum was too scared to defend them would have allowed that understandable resentment to fester and would have estranged them both.

I've often thought our ES and his wife thought "we would chase after them or beg" Onward. On the one hand I think not because he knows what a stickler I am for truth, honestly and openness.

On the other, I loved him so much, we were so close, maybe he did think I would fight for a relationship, and maybe she thought she'd have total control over us because we'd live the rest of our lives in fear that this would happen again.

Great advice Madgran. You're a wonderful supporter of this thread with your sensible approach, a steady guiding hand.

For those who still have GC they can see, your pain is no less than those of us who have none. Whether we are estranged from all our children, our only child or one, we are all in pain, we all have bad days and when we do, there'll be someone posting here whose having a good day, and they will help get us through our bad one.

So my wonderful Warrior Queens, wear your armour with pride, find peace when it protects you completely and on those days when despite your armour the pain finds a way through, talk to your fellow Warrior Queens who are always here.

for you all xxxxx

Thanks Smiles....lovely post.

I am low today, trying not to cry but failing miserably. Oh well I will just get busy and get through the day.

One foot in front of the other........

Smileless, I don't believe my MIL is in any pain. I sometimes wonder if she could have regrets and wish she'd done things differently, but I suspect she's past pain, as many here seem to get to after a few years. I do believe she still cares for her son and have seen fleeting evidence of that. I think she still has some inappropriate possessive sense of claim on her grandchildren. I sometimes think I'm the only one that cares in this whole scenario. I always have to remind myself I am not playing this game and their relationship is theirs to manage (or not).

Derbyshire lass. I was like that yesterday and Thursday. We must just keep boxing on. Where there's life there's hope. I think my ES is schizophrenic. But no matter the cause doesn't mean we should accept abuse or ill treatment. I'm gonna think of me and u should do the same. We need to keep mobile and self reliant. Buggar the lot of them

To expand on the Munchausens, and Munchausens by proxy I do hate what my DiL has made my son and GC into, they are hypochondriacs! according to her my GD has EDS, and Raynauds disease, my GS has EDS, Asthma, is on the Autistic spectrum and is allergic to everything under the sun, she insists on having a wheelchair for my GS because she says he get's tired yet when he's with me we walk the dog for miles and I can't keep up with him. She has turned my son into a wimp. We use the same doctors and have a very unusual surname - they must cringe when they hear it.

Goodness, this thread moves quickly these days, doesn't it? I think that Smileless has developed threads which really touch so many people and help them to deal with their pain.

I am sorry to hear that you are having a bad day Derbyshire Lass. You are right that the only thing to do is keep occupied and keep going, and I think that you are inspirational with your fighting spirit. We none of us wanted or chose to be estranged from those whom we loved so very much, who are literally part of us. However, I think that you and Smileless and others are right. We cannot chase or beg or even fight for a relationship in such a way that we lose our own integrity or, otherwise, we lose our self respect, then our identity, and any sense of self-worth. And, as we all know, if you appease a bully, they lose respect for you and their behaviour deteriorates. All bullies are cowards and the only way to deal with them is to stand up to them, not by being confrontational, but by not engaging in their power games and general nonsense.

I am interested that some of you have mentioned the effects of Time, not only the question of whether or not time heals the pain, but also the missed time. My husband was diagnosed with terminal cancer just before he met his DGDs for the first time, having been unaware of DGD1's existence for the first 14 months of her life. I still find it hard not to be angry about that, all of those special moments which were missed, for ED as well as her family.

Then there is the fact, as some of you have pointed out, that there may be a limited window of opportunity where the DGC are very young, where they love and trust their DGPs in an innocent and exuberant way, before their peer group becomes the most important influence in their lives. Even where there is reconciliation, the time has passed, as everything does, so there is bound to be mourning for what might have been. But I try not to dwell on these thoughts as, ultimately, it does no good.

What I have personally found to be helpful is to only contact DD when I am in a good mood, so that my communications are more positive. In fact, I have found this to be a useful rule when dealing with everybody as, when I am feeling down or tired, my negative energy is inevitably reflected in what I say, how I am and what I do. So, if I am having a bad day, I try to just keep to myself as much as possible.

Wishing you all a positive and happy weekend!

Thank you to everyone for being so understanding. At times, I feel like I am the only one going through this with my daughter until I read your posts. I didnt see my daughters two girls, my grand daughters for 2 years until her ex husband stepped in and said that they needed their gran in their lives. They have had his parents in their lives constantly as both my daughter and her ex husband (their dad) have always worked. His parents have had them every school holidays and the parents have them alternate weekend. I have missed out on so much that my heart aches. The tears flows so easily these days.

Purplepixie I totally understand, most of my tears were shed at night when I'd lay there thinking about my ES, it's a shame that they are wasted.

DSLdon't see crying as a failure, it's part of the healing process, a release of some of the pain and goodness knows we all need that from time to time.

You care CafeAuLait despite everything you care and you're right, "their relationship is theirs to manage (or not). If our d.i.l. thought like you I wouldn't be here. If she'd just left us to have our relationship, we'd still have one. You've tried to facilitate your H's relationship with his mum, our ES's wife went out pf her way to destroy ours, and succeeded.

Goodness Elless that's frightening. I'm sorry, I don't know what to say.

The new thread has certainly got off to a flying start PF. I think you contacting your D when you're having a good day is a good idea.

Missed time has been on my mind more and more the longer our estrangement goes on. Too much is an enormous obstacle to overcome. GC who are growing up so quickly and all those milestones we've missed; walking, talking, first day at school, sports days, Christmas plays the list goes on and on doesn't.

You mourn for what was lost as we mourn for what we'll never have.

Our AC who we no longer know and wonder, well I do, if we ever did. Would they know us? Would they if they got in touch, anticipate the response they may get? The lack of trust, the anger because of the pain they've caused and perhaps the fear being so great that history will be repeated, that we cannot reconcile and if we do, that there answers to questions we must have and above all we want honesty, the truth, not their truth but the real truth.

Purplepixie thank goodness for your ex s.i.l. The juxtaposition of some of our s's.i.l/d's.i.l. is stark isn't it. Despite him being your ex s.i.l. he's ensured your GC see you, while for us and so many others, they're the ones who have ensured we never see our AC or GC again.

Enjoy the time you have with them now. Yes, you've missed out on so much but there are so many memories for you to make.

Hi again.....

Feeling ok (ish). Have just kept busy.

It's hard to stop ruminating sometimes isn't it. Sometimes I can't get it out of my head. Problem is I then make myself angry and it takes me all my willpower not to march over to their house all guns blazing, But that's what she wants so I refuse to give her the satisfaction. I wont fall into her traps or play into her hands,

PF. Wise words and good counsel - .when we feel down or at our lowest it's best to lie low and keep quiet. As you say it's best to wait until we feel better and we can radiate positive rather than negative energy.

It's 4 weeks again for me.........And I'm sick of it. But I wont weaken. If they expect me to grovel and plead then they have another thing coming. As always the ball is in their court and I wont be chasing after them.

It might not be much but like you say PF we need to hang on to our pride, our integrity, our dignity and our self respect.

PP all that lost time, it can never be reclaimed. Awful for you. No wonder your heart aches.

Elles......I too don't know what to say. It is just wrong on so many levels.

How can you get your head around estrangement especially if you don't know the reason for the estrangement.
Some days I'm so angry and hurt I would like to confront them other days its just S×d them!
Do I send cards or not, should I just let it go ? Its so difficult to stop the constant thoughts going around in your mind .
Like DSL its just one of those days.?

"Perhaps EAC talk about it too and that encourages others to do the same"

Please remember the support thread is for everyone and EAC read and use it too.

We do talk about it but generally support groups are for EAC/abused adult children and kept private to them so those support places are sought out specifically by people who need them. I am a member of one that has around 80,000 members. Completely private to protect abuse victims. The only non abuse victims that join are estranged parents on very rare occasion.

Abuse victims are not encouraging others to estrange the parents we would dearly love to have.

If EAC have estranged for absolutely no reason, they aren't saying so in any of the places I see EAC speak about estrangement and they aren't recruiting others to what is an incredibly difficult and painful decision.

I still get moments of anger like that DSL and it's been 9 years. Keeping busy helps as does knowing that there's nothing wrong with feeling angry, it's perfectly natural and understandable.

You posted "it's 4 weeks again" for you, is it 4 weeks since you last heard from them? If so, this game playing is clearly for the sole purpose of 'getting to you', so stick to your guns and let them get on with it. Hard I know but you can do it.

There's no right or wrong when it comes to sending cards or not Bridie you must do what you're comfortable with. Remember that what ever decision you make should be about you and how you feel and not about them.