Sign for grandchildren

Thank you for responding Hithere. Grandchildren growing up and priorities changing for me isn't an issue here as this is about parents stopping the relationship their children have with grandparents.

The same with "anybody can just stop talking to anybody". It seems to me that there are a lot of grandparents here whose adult child has done this and as a consequence their grandchildren are no longer allowed to see them or have any contact with them.

This is what this petition is concerned with, safe and established relationships being broken for this reason, not because parents have found out or suspect that the relationship isn't safe.

Blanket leave to go to court is just that Summerlove. It just means that grandparents wouldn't have to ask if they can go to court. That would be the only thing that would change. It doesn't mean that it would be any easier for them to get contact when the case goes to court.

That's right MercuryQueen and I think you will find that that was posted because someone had already said they hadn't signed because they saw children as the priority.

For me it is the inability of all the adults concerned, parents and grandparents that can result in a case going to court. Not just the responsibility of the grandparents. They will be the ones who go to court but the intransigence of the parents will be why.

A very interesting discussion.

I'm very sorry to read about your situation OnwardandUpward. A sad but good example I think of how some parents are prepared to treat their parents and children if they don't get their own way.

Agedp1953

Thank you for responding Hithere. Grandchildren growing up and priorities changing for me isn't an issue here as this is about parents stopping the relationship their children have with grandparents.

The same with "anybody can just stop talking to anybody". It seems to me that there are a lot of grandparents here whose adult child has done this and as a consequence their grandchildren are no longer allowed to see them or have any contact with them.

This is what this petition is concerned with, safe and established relationships being broken for this reason, not because parents have found out or suspect that the relationship isn't safe.

Blanket leave to go to court is just that Summerlove. It just means that grandparents wouldn't have to ask if they can go to court. That would be the only thing that would change. It doesn't mean that it would be any easier for them to get contact when the case goes to court.

That's right MercuryQueen and I think you will find that that was posted because someone had already said they hadn't signed because they saw children as the priority.

For me it is the inability of all the adults concerned, parents and grandparents that can result in a case going to court. Not just the responsibility of the grandparents. They will be the ones who go to court but the intransigence of the parents will be why.

A very interesting discussion.

I'm very sorry to read about your situation OnwardandUpward. A sad but good example I think of how some parents are prepared to treat their parents and children if they don't get their own way.

I do wonder have you any experience of what is involved in a family matter going to court? You seem to imagine some sort of perfect sitution where GPs turn up say they want to continue a relationship and are granted permission (or not). The reality will involve solicitors being appointed as both parents and GPs dig in and views become even more entrenched. As these opposing views are expressed the child will be asked for their views and will have to choose, to upset either their parents or their GPs. It's not a decision that any child should be asked to make. Childen should undoubtedly be able to express their views and give their opinions but that is completely different to having to choose.
Even if the GP gets the contact they want the child will still suffer emotionally every time they meet.

Is personal experience necessarily a good thing trisher? It seems to me that for some, their personal experiences prevent them from seeing an issue such as this from another perspective.

I never talk about my personal situation and experiences on on line forums such as this and providing I can offer a reasonable point of view, which I believe I have done, I don't think it is relevant. My imagination or indeed lack of one is also irrelevant.

Children will only be asked, if they are age appropriate. Any reasonable and loving parent and grandparent, putting the best interests of a child first, would not allow their child to feel guilty and upset for speaking honestly.

A child would only feel they were choosing between their parents and their grandparents if either made them feel that way.

I don't agree that a child would "suffer emotionally every time they meet" with their grandparents, providing all the adults involved put their personal grievances to one side and prioritise the child.

It isn’t necessary to have personal knowledge of the Family Courts to understand something of how they operate.
Care proceedings have increased by 50% during the pandemic. The Courts are struggling already. I can see no advantage in adding to this unsustainable workload by giving grandparents, or anyone else, the ‘right’ to make an application.

It’s rare for people to need to make application, most parents meet with the Cafcass worker, or mediator and avoid Court by reaching agreements.

Children ‘suffer emotionally’ by Court proceedings. Stress, anxiety before meeting with the Cafcass officer or social worker. Often the children have been coached in what to say, they don’t want to add to the stress their parents are exhibiting. If ‘all the adults involved put their personal grievances to one side and prioritise the child’, there would be no need for the suggestion grandparents ‘rights’ should be enshrined in law

Blanket leave to go to court is just that Summerlove. It just means that grandparents wouldn't have to ask if they can go to court. That would be the only thing that would change. It doesn't mean that it would be any easier for them to get contact when the case goes to court.

Yes, I understand how it works. I just think it’s a terrible idea. It puts the parents under undo stress.

I think estrangement is incredibly sad. However, I firmly believe that safe caring parents have the right to raise their children the way they want.

It’s very, very said when that means that good loving grandparents lose out. But it also means parents get to choose to cut out people who they don’t deem as safe and loving.

As always, abusive/chaotic cases are a separate kettle of fish.

I am concerned for my GC because of my son's current situation, which I am not going to talk about on a public forum. He believes I am unsafe to be around, but that's because of his MH , paranoia and beliefs around the covid jab.

Because he believes those things, those things are his reality. We become what we think about.

I can only hope that my GC are completely oblivious to anything undesirable and unhealthy. There would be no point in forcing contact because he would become stressed and it would harm his MH even more, which in turn would impact on my GC.

In time I hope he will get the support he clearly needs and although he is currently unmedicated for his condition, I hope for the best.

I will not argue with his "reality" or attempt to convince him of my validity, which he may be expecting me to do "because it's Christmas". Indeed if I did try to change his mind, it would only compound his beliefs more.

Instead I will have a peaceful Christmas and believe that everything happens for a reason. Everyone who knows me knows the truth, so I have other kids in the family to enjoy time with. What will be, will be.

OnwardandUpward I agree

Then there is scapegoating. When things are going well in an abusers life they don't need an emotional punchbag but when things are going wrong they need someone to take it out on.

I know that's an awful way to have to think but it's so hard to prove because their victims have been conditioned to believe they deserve it and when they finally start to break free of that there is no way of proving it.

It is true that when someone cannot control you, they will try to run you down to others in an attempt to isolate you Violetsky Unfortunately I am only too familiar with this type of behaviour, from my upbringing and also my son tried really hard to talk me out of my beliefs and opinions. He only estranged me when he failed to control me.

I have had a lot of controlling relationships in my past and I recognise it when I see it. I am an intelligent person, with my own mind and I am well capable of making an informed decision by weighing up all the facts for myself. If that makes me a threat, so be it.

Iam64

It isn’t necessary to have personal knowledge of the Family Courts to understand something of how they operate.
Care proceedings have increased by 50% during the pandemic. The Courts are struggling already. I can see no advantage in adding to this unsustainable workload by giving grandparents, or anyone else, the ‘right’ to make an application.

It’s rare for people to need to make application, most parents meet with the Cafcass worker, or mediator and avoid Court by reaching agreements.

Children ‘suffer emotionally’ by Court proceedings. Stress, anxiety before meeting with the Cafcass officer or social worker. Often the children have been coached in what to say, they don’t want to add to the stress their parents are exhibiting. If ‘all the adults involved put their personal grievances to one side and prioritise the child’, there would be no need for the suggestion grandparents ‘rights’ should be enshrined in law

Yes, I had to deal with FCs in my job.

As you say, they are overburdened anyway (especially post Covid), and quite formal, with the children and adults needing legal representation.

Reports have to be submitted after interviewing all parties, and it’s all stress.

As many estranged fathers (usually), would confirm, it’s also very expensive, especially if people won’t comply with the court order.

Mediation might be an answer for some, but court action just isn’t going to work for most.

There is already a system in place for grandparents, and others, to ask for legal access, via the court, usually only for exceptional circumstances, and I don’t know the success rate.

Best left as it is, in my view. This will put unacceptable stress on children.

As Dr Seuss says "Those Who Mind Don’t Matter, and Those Who Matter Don’t Mind"

Be yourself. Don't let anyone edit you or control you, even if that person is someone you gave birth to.

I also have decided, don't please others, please yourself. At least then someone will always be happy with you. LOL

All anyone can do is what they believe to be right. My son is doing that. I respect his power to choose, even if it doesn't include me. I know that he will face the consequences of whatever choices he makes, as we all do.

Agedp1953

Is personal experience necessarily a good thing trisher? It seems to me that for some, their personal experiences prevent them from seeing an issue such as this from another perspective.

I never talk about my personal situation and experiences on on line forums such as this and providing I can offer a reasonable point of view, which I believe I have done, I don't think it is relevant. My imagination or indeed lack of one is also irrelevant.

Children will only be asked, if they are age appropriate. Any reasonable and loving parent and grandparent, putting the best interests of a child first, would not allow their child to feel guilty and upset for speaking honestly.

A child would only feel they were choosing between their parents and their grandparents if either made them feel that way.

I don't agree that a child would "suffer emotionally every time they meet" with their grandparents, providing all the adults involved put their personal grievances to one side and prioritise the child.

Agedp1953 Personal experience isn't necessary but if you are signing this petition I think a working knowledge of the court system and what actually happens is desirable. The family court system was set up with all of the best possible intentions, many of which are similar to the ideals set out in your post, unfortunately in disputes ideals tend to be thrown out of the window. What was seen as being a means of settling disputes amicably actually increases animosity. Some solicitors actually encourage and facilitate this, and things escalate.

If the family members were as reasonable as you seem to imagine the matter would never need to come to court anyway and the petition would be unnecessary. If the matter becomes a court issue and the child has to be asked they are actually being asked to choose between their parents and grandparents and it must be stressful for them.

As has already been stated the expense and the huge overload already involved in family court proceedings are also factors.
I really can't see how this petition helps.

I've read on solicitors websites the exact same pitfalls to persuing access through court for a grandparent that have been mentioned

I take on board what you're saying Iam, that said I do get the impression that all the responsibility for whether or not grandparents do go to court is placed on them when for me, it should be equally placed on the parents.

I agree Summerlove that "abusive/chaotic cases are a different kettle of fish" which is why I differentiate between those and cases where that doesn't apply.

Your posts are very moving OnwardandUpward. I hope the day will come when the relationship with your son changes and wish you peace and happiness this Christmas.

Aged I do understand what you mean there and for myself, I did carry that weight even with the support of my older children to estrange

I agree trisher and I do have knowledge of the court system but will say no more as as I have already said here, I do not give any information or insight into my personal life.

I think it is good manners not to assume that anyone who has signed this petition has not considered the ramifications of doing so, and/or is entirely ignorant on the subject.

Once again I see you have referred to my imagination which I find rather odd as I am not aware of having given the impression that I imagine all would be resolved if mediation were undertaken.

Of course if the parents and grandparents can reach an amicable agreement a case would not have to go court, that goes without saying.

I have previously stated that only if a child is asked to choose or made to feel that they're making a choice, that would be an issue. It all depends on how the situation is presented to the child.

If presented sensibly and reasonably, the words choice and choose would never be used and are very easily avoided. For example, 'would you like to see your grandparents' is all that needs to be asked, requiring a simple yes or no answer.

Yes I would like to see my GC, (but not if it's going to destabilise my EAC further as that would affect his parenting even more.)

The children come first, with or without me.

Yes of course OnwardandUpward, I understand.

Why would good loving grandparents consider the ramifications if they aren't pointed out? Their plight is so much different. I would hope that everything will come back to them with time and patience

I don't understand. Why wouldn't good loving grandparents consider any ramifications unless they're pointed out? I would have thought that a great deal of thought, research and legal advice is undertaken before taking on the expensive and uncertainty of the outcome of going to court.

Their plight is so much different to what?

I see that there are grandparents who have been estranged from their child and grandchildren for years in some cases and I can see why for some, time and patience have there limits.

It's all been said already aged and I'm not sure it's really helpful to keep saying it.

If people know the possible negative outcomes and they still want to take the court route that's their decision I suppose.

I genuinely don't think this petition will change the way things stand because of the reasons things are the way they stand.

I am truly sorry to those who lose out because of it but I would hope that those who have a significant positive role in their grandchildren lives would be given leave to apply to court under the current system anyway

Yes it is their decision. There must be genuine concerns "that those who have a significant role in their grandchildren's lives" are not "being given leave to apply to court under the current system" for this petition to have been started.

If that is indeed the case, I am glad to have signed it and hope that the necessary changes are made.

I don't agree that the questions I have asked have been addressed before, as it's only in your last post that I've seen it suggested that loving grandparents need the ramifications pointing out.

I would have been interested to see you expand on your statement that "their plight is so much different". I can only assume you were referring to the plight of grandparents if you're unwilling to answer my questions.

Why wouldn't good loving grandparents consider any ramifications unless they're pointed out?

Good questioning!

I think good loving grandparents would consider all ramifications. They would then decide on balance, from their perspective, what they wanted to do. For various reasons they may decide to go ahead with court, or they may decide not to.
If they decide to go ahead it doesnt mean they haven't considered ramifications, it just means they have decided they should still go ahead. There could be all sorts of reasons for that because circumstances in these cases vary so much, as highlighted in reading through this thread.

That's meant to say good question not questioning!!

aged "if that is indeed the case“ is obviously stating that you do not know and made the choice anyway.

I do think that good loving grandparents may not consider the possible harm to children going to court or the possible harm to other children if this door is left open. If they did then why have so many of us spent several pages explaining them? I'll answer my own question, because those ramifications are nit mentioned in the petition or in many of the replies of those who signed.

Grandparents plight who have been cut off unfairly is very different to grandparents who have been cut off for good reason.

It's really difficult because I feel like it's a dead end argument and minds will not change and again, I think that's a shame as my children are not at risk but other children are and I care about them.

Losing contact with a family member

Being at risk of abuse

Again, it's quite obvious which will do more damage to a child.

It's taken me half a lifetime to undo the damage. I would not wish it on anyone