Sign for grandchildren

I do think that good loving grandparents may not consider the possible harm to children going to court

They may not, but it seems more likely that good loving ones will consider but may, for whatever reason, decide they should still go ahead. The "explanations" from people with differing views, appear to have been people not agreeing with each other more than people not listening to explanations, from both ends of the spectrum of views. Inevitable really re the differing views on such an emotive subject.

People will sign or not sign, referencing the OP. So be it!

Again if the understanding is where it needs to be "so be it!" seems a bit blasé.

I don't know that that's right otherwise. I've seen estranged grandparents who I have a lot of respect for give the very same concerns in regards to this topic on this thread and others.

Yes it's emotive and I can understand the heartbreak some go through and why this could be seen as hope, yet would counsel other avenues. Not just for the sake of children but for the sake of themselves and their chances of ever having a real reconsiliation

Again if the understanding is where it needs to be "so be it!" seems a bit blasé

It's not meant to be blasé. I just mean people will sign as they see fit.

I've seen estranged grandparents who I have a lot of respect for give the very same concerns in regards to this topic on this thread and others.

So have I! I was not in my post suggesting otherwise. My point is that on such an emotive topic there will inevitably be widely differing views which will influence both responses and decisions to sign or not sign

.*I can understand the heartbreak some go through and why this could be seen as hope, yet would counsel other avenues*

Yes I know, I am not sure what I have said that suggests I didn't understand the points you have been making re counseling other avenues. Others have also counselled other avenues.

Hopefully all contributions will help those in this situation in their thinking about a way forward.

Oh then I'm not sure why I keep being pulled back in, I have not suggested anyone is a bad person for signing. That would probably be counterproductive on an important issue

I think you're right Madgran "that good loving ones" having thought long and hard may well make the decision to go ahead.

I do find it odd that some posts appear to suggest that good loving grandparents wouldn't want to sign the petition or go to court for contact.

It may well be that when it gets to this point the grandparents no longer believe that a reconciliation with their adult child is possible, so 'risking' that doesn't enter into the equation.

This is why many give up on these discussions.

It's really not right or fair to assume motivations or others thinking behind their comments and then use that in a round about attempt to try and influence the discussion or others view of it/other participants.

It really saddens me sometimes

This very emotive subject of estrangement needs aired and aired til we’re sick of listening to it. Ive said this before. For too long estranged parents grandparents said nothing hid the pain and the shame. Even though the shame was not theirs to hide.

This was in some cases to protect the child but in doing so the ones who has a hidden agenda ran riot and the children suffered.

If we really have nothing to hide lets open up the can of worms, if we are concerned about what hiding underneath the worms then let’s find a way to expose it and set some of these children parents and grandparents free. Let’s find a way that will benefit all concerned.

Some of the posts here are balanced and you can read the sensible and genuine desire to help those in this situation of estrangement or sensible reasons why court is not the way forward. Others not so much. Cut and paste comes to mind. This helps no one. In fact to me it highlights the need to keep plugging away for shinning a light on and exposing the dirt that’s hidden underneath the noise.

As a grandparent who is estranged from one grandchild but who has others who bring joy and love I know I’m one of the lucky ones. I’ll never give up on my estranged darling grandchild who is so much missed and loved by her family. We will always reserve the right to be concerned about her welfare and will do what ever it takes to from a distance keeps her close to our hearts.

The courts might not be the place to start but anyone who truly has their child’s welfare and other children’s welfare and happiness at heart will understand the desire to end this way of dealing with problems and let kids just be kids and enjoy their granny and grandad.

VioletSky

Oh then I'm not sure why I keep being pulled back in, I have not suggested anyone is a bad person for signing. That would probably be counterproductive on an important issue

Um, I have no idea why you keep being "pulled back in" but in this case I suppose it is because I commented on a specific point you made about "good loving grandparents may not consider the possible harm to children of going to court"

I haven't said that you suggested anyone not signing is a bad person. I just said people will sign or not sign and so be it, which you felt seemed blasé. I explained it wasn't meant to be blasé.

I agreed with you that we have seen estranged grandparents express the same views (I took that to mean the same views as you) I am unclear what I said that meant you felt you had to make the point, but no matter.

I understood that you counsel different avenues to those suggested in the petition, again I was unclear what I said that made you feel you had to make that point, but no matter

Shall we jump off the hamster wheel now and move on?

Again I hope this thread helps all those in this difficult situation in considering their way forward.

No problem Madgran

They may not, but it seems more likely that good loving ones will consider but may, for whatever reason, decide they should still go ahead

I don’t know how you could possibly know that?

GG65

*They may not, but it seems more likely that good loving ones will consider but may, for whatever reason, decide they should still go ahead*

I don’t know how you could possibly know that?

I can't "know" it, any more than the poster I was responding to who said they " think that good loving grandparents may not consider the possible harm to children going to court" can "know" it. It is my opinion that if they are good and loving it seems more likely they will have considered ramifications, precisely because they are good and loving; others can disagree.

That's not what I was trying to get across though

You can't consider what you don't know.

There is nothing in this petition about it.

At face value it looks like a wonderful idea.

People often don't look at grandparents as ever being a threat the same way they don't look at mothers as ever being a threat.

Too many children and grandchildren know this due to experience but even then, often don't know or can't comprehend the scope because they have been abused.

So why would I or anyone expect people to know or understand when it took me half a life time to understand what had been done to me?

It's not that simple and it's not people's fault if they don't have all the facts

Sorry VS can you explain your last post not too sure what you mean?

That's not what I was trying to get across though

I think this was in response to my last comment? Apologies if it wasn't.

Points have been made by various posters about how going to court can

*cause stress to parents , passed on to the children
* cause financial difficulties etc, causing hard times to the children
*put children in between warring adults, upsetting the children
*potentially putting children in line to observe arguments etc between parents/Gps
*potentially making children "choose" against their parents wishes

These are just a few examples of potential ramifications mentioned on this or past threads on the same subject. I think that good and loving grandparents might well consider those potential ramifications when trying to make a decision about whether to go to court, as demonstrated by some estranged grandparents on this and other threads who have said they would not go to court because of the impact on the children etc.

I accept you may have been thinking of other ramifications when you made that comment Violet. I read the statement as a bit generalised and think it's fair to say that just as good and loving grandparents may not consider the harm equally they may consider the possible harm.

I am truly not trying to upset anyone here, just making a straight forward balanced point about what may or not be considered by a group made up of so many different people with different circumstances , different experiences and one commonality as "good and loving grandparents*

Well yes

But I wouldn't blame them for not knowing which is why it's important to speak the truth about it

I don't think there is any way I can be any clearer about what I mean

Madgran thank you for you well though out post.

I do want to respond because I think it is important to know that when posters like VS and I, and others, post, we aren't here to argue. We too and just trying to make a straight forward balanced point.

Every time a good loving grandparent who has so wrongly been estranged from a grandchild fights against the rights of parents to make decisions for their offspring, it erodes the ability and rights for us who have been abused to protect our children from abusive grandparents.

I can only speak for myself, but I am sure that VS would agree, I have considered the viewpoint of good and loving grandparents. My question back is, have you considered the viewpoint of those that do not have good and loving grandparents?

I am not asking that expecting you or anyone to answer. I am just hoping that all people in support of this change in law is aware of what the possible ramifications are to the children of abusive Grandparents.

Is this was a simple as "every Grandparent is loving and caring" then I would support this effort. But that is not true and people who get uncomfortable about it or try to shut down others who do talk about it are actually hindering progress. We have the responsibility to at least be knowledgeable about the possible outcome could be for everyone when we fight to change laws.

So, as I asked earlier on this thread, what do the people who want this law changed propose we do to keep the children who DO have abusive grandparents safe?

You simply can not have a discussion about rights to children without discussing the responsibilities we also have to them. This law could very well mean that a good and loving grandparent would be reunited with their Grandchild. But it also means that an abusive Grandparent would be reunited with their Grandchild as well. That deserves consideration.

I do agree freedom

and yes all childrens rights need protecting here

It has to be about the bigger picture

Violet I haven't suggested you shouldn't "speak the truth about it". I get what you mean, as I have said several times so no , no need to be any clearer!

Freedom thanks for your response.

My question back is, have you considered the viewpoint of those that do not have good and loving grandparents?

Yes I have! All my comment was about was one specific point made that I felt was too generalised, as I read it.

I think it is important to know that when posters like VS and I, and others, post, we aren't here to argue. We too and just trying to make a straight forward balanced point

I don't think I have suggested otherwise really.

If this was a simple as "every Grandparent is loving and caring" then I would support this effort. But that is not true and people who get uncomfortable about it or try to shut down others who do talk about it are actually hindering progress. We have the responsibility to at least be knowledgeable about the possible outcome could be for everyone when we fight to change laws.

I certainly have never suggested that "every grandparent is loving and caring", aside from common sense my own life experiences in various scenarios tells me that. I am not sure that other posters are saying that/thinking that either when they argue for the law to be changed; they may or may not be seeing the bigger picture, but that doesn't mean they think that as a given.

Posters arguing for the law to change do seem to get their posts read sometimes as meaning they think "all grandparents are loving and caring" though , judging by the replies they sometimes get.

Just as others arguing against the law being changed also get assumptions made about their thinking.

I haven't argued either way for the law to be changed or not changed so I will leave others who have to respond to your remaining points.

Madgran I think you read too much into what I am saying sometimes because I just end up baffled and wondering where its coming from.

I'm a bit passionate about this topic that's all, I'm not wanting an argument or anything

Madgran, I apologize that my post seemed that it was directed at you personally. When I was asking those questions, I was meaning society as a whole. Sometimes my communication style is way to American. I do make the effort to remember that when I post, but sometimes I miss it.

I do agree that posters arguing for the law do seem to get their posts read sometimes as meaning they think "all grandparents are loving and caring". And vice versa.

That is why I believe that this back and forth that always seem to happen will stall any progress made. Every time we have a post such as this, it delves into this back and forth with both sides and gets no where.

This is why I asked the questions I did in my previous post. If I were sitting at a table with someone who supported this law, I would say this:

I understand that you are loving and caring and want to have contact with your grandchild. What do you propose we change to make that happen that still keeps my children safe?

I would image that the person I am sitting across from would say, I understand that your parents are abusive and you are trying to keep your children safe. What changes do you propose that would help me, a loving caring grandparent, see my grandchildren?

Anyhow, that is my utopia and how I try approach discussions of this nature.

It's coming from.. I read something, I think about the statement, I comment on the statement or opinion as I see it, sometimes giving an alternative view or perspective.

I am increasingly baffled!

I am going to bed

Madgran77

It's coming from.. I read something, I think about the statement, I comment on the statement or opinion as I see it, sometimes giving an alternative view or perspective.

I am increasingly baffled!

I am going to bed

Often we are saying the same thing or I agree with you yet feel you don't agree with me so I'm not sure where it's going wrong but definitely happy to have a chat and a cuppa with you over PM sometime and put it right

I also need to sleep, had a few days of being unable to now and no idea why

Night

Madgran, I apologize that my post seemed that it was directed at you personally. When I was asking those questions, I was meaning society as a whole. Sometimes my communication style is way to American. I do make the effort to remember that when I post, but sometimes I miss it.

No worries freedom.

Your questions are relevant for consideration in the discussion.

The problem is that because it is so emotive a subject for so many, from different ends of the spectrum, every word counts when writing about it on a group forum and can create all sorts of
"Rat run channels" for the
discussion to go down, some relevant some not. Generalised comments, not necessarily meant as they can be/are read, can so easily be misunderstood.

I try hard to be very precise regarding such comments as I think it is important to try to stop apparently emotive generalisations, which may not be intended, running down a rat run in the conversations. Sometimes, as with this one, I seem to have created a bigger rat run!! ?

Your utopia sounds a good one ?

Personal experiences are important, that goes without saying. I’m not attempting to intellectualise discussions like this. It’s relevant though to acknowledge that unresolved feelings of grief, anger, rage and hurt aren’t a good foundation for policy making.

Agreed Iam which is why it is just as well that those understandably affected are not the policy makers.