Looking for the right answer to criticisms.

Eugenia - what I see over and over again is a culture of blame. Your daughter, your SIL, your husband, the young woman involved, your DD's friend. Blame, condemnation, and repentance. A very toxic mix. Do you ever blame yourself...for as we know "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". You do say, by way of self-blame, that you married young and put everything into your children and GC. But that is said in a manner that suggests that you see that as an entirely positive thing. If you really, really analyse your role in all this, can you see anything that you did or said that was hurtful, even if unconsciously? Were you around your family too much? Did you offer unsolicited advice, however helpful you believed it to be? Is there any possibility that your presence was too much for your SIL to handle? Your DD is, I assume, a teacher, and as such, needs quiet time in abundance to mark and prepare school work. An extra person in the home, specially one whose only joy in life is found with her family, can be very taxing. If their marriage was idyllic, then something caused tensions. Why should your SIL apologise to YOU before YOU can forgive him? It's nothing to do with you - they need to sort it themselves.
I find it interesting that your son is the golden child, frequently offering wisdom which impresses you. You say nothing about him apart from that. His marriage foundered because of personality differences. Fair enough. I wonder what his ex-wife would say, though? If you don't see her or her family, after being so close, there must have been animosity. It's not like the marriage failed because of adultery or domestic violence. Has your DS moved away from you? If so, does he visit regularly? Has he talked with his sister about the situation? They must have been, and hopefully, still are close after their idyllic childhood. What does he say about his father's behaviour, since that seems to be your DD's major gripe...that you married the wrong man? Will he marry again, do you think, and will you be as enmeshed with his children as with your DD’s?
Rather than telling us so much peripheral material, about what surveys say men like about young women, the symptoms of your menopause and the behaviour of your DD’s friend’s mother, why don’t you really give the whole situation some deep thought? Everything is unravelling, it seems, and one of the major factors is you. You can’t be very old, if you have only just undergone the menopause. You have so much life left. So much time to really live and discover yourself. Happiness is not found in other people’s lives. You make it yourself. Why not start by joining a craft group, or a choir, or playing a sport? Meet a friend for coffee and a brisk walk? Getting out into the world, fresh air and exercise is so therapeutic. See your doctor if you believe that you are depressed. Have you tried HRT? It is amazing stuff!
All the best, Eugenia. Remember that no-one on here is blaming or criticising. We are offering support and a listening ear, and some thoughts from our own life experiences. Keep well x.

I meant to say, also ...why not try to rebuild your own marriage? When your chicks have flown the nest, that's the time to rediscover what made you fall in love in the first place. You rarely mention your DH - a shadowy figure in the background. What sort of a life has he had? What does he want out of the marriage and family? The fact that you are still married is a positive. HRT is amazing in that it does wonders for your libido! You should be enjoying each other at this stage of life, getting out and about, travelling, going out, or staying in, for romantic dinners. Good luck! x

There are some misconceptions that I was always around my daughter and her family most of the time.

I watched my grandson 1 day a week; they asked me to, so they could save money on daycare. The other two days of daycare, she had him in there for socialization; the rest of the week they had off work.

So I was alone at my house with grandson once a week; then usually on a weekend day, we would all (husband, son would come along) go out to eat or do something...or simply visit over their place or ours for a movie.

I didn't mean to leave the impression I was at their house many times a week. I was not.

As much as I adored to do things with them and my grandson, I actually spaced out the time I spent with them on purpose because yes, I was young once with kids and I know how important private family time is!

I did turn down invites at times and said it was because they needed family time! I would always say I would join them the next time they went....zoo, park, etc.

Now I worry, maybe I didn't do enough. I remember never bothering my son in law to be with his son on his 2 days off when my daughter was at work.

Towards the end he actually messaged me one day when he was off and wanted to see if I wanted to go do something. I was surprised but accepted and it was a fun afternoon of shopping and lunch with he and my grandson at Downtown Disney. We live in close by Disneyland.

Does that sound like a son in law who's had too much of a mother in law hanging around?

Right before the breakup, he even mentioned after our outing he would like to come around with my grandson on his days off and hang out more with me and my son. Maybe go back to Downtown Disney.

I told him anytime, just let me know. And I did wait for him to let me know, I don't push. But just a few weeks later, he mentioned that he went back with his son again.

Thought it was odd because of what he had said before. We found out later he had went with the girl he'd just met.

When my daughter and son in law broke up, I did regularly go to her house but usually only once a week to visit and she would always ask if I could just play with the kids so she could have extra time to grade.

She would also come over, again maybe once a week, to enjoy me feeding her and taking care of the kids so she could either grade or go to the gym with her brother.

Also, wanted to clear up that I don't expect an actual apology to myself if my SIL were to one day decide he wanted his family back. I meant the "forgiveness" on my part as I would forgive....aka not hold a grudge over what he had done. Everyone makes mistakes.

I am sure if my daughter took him back (and she would, I guarantee it) that she also would not want me to hold a grudge aka unforgiveness towards him. I would think if he's good enough for her, I should have no issue with him.

I mean, how would that be supportive of her, if she forgave/took him back and I was the one hating on him?

But yeah, right now he can go straight to......

I don't think any of those what ifs really matter Eugenia, what matters now is rebuilding the relationship with your daughter. All the time you are focused on all this other stuff... Its not going to get better

Eugenia, you talk about forgiveness of your former SIL. You have nothing to forgive, that would be down to your daughter and despite what you are saying there seem no signs that any reconciliation will happen.

Your angry daughter, as you describe her, who is still your child, is what you have now. I honestly suggest that you let her come to you and as and when she does, you ask her what she needs and provide it without the huge degree of emotional enmeshment you have shown so far (from your own words) This is the best way forward to preserve a relationship with her and her (her) family.

This is the best I can say. Frankly, I have little time for parents who seem to dismiss the children they bought into the world because the nice, unthreatening little grandchildren are so much easier than navigating the relationships with adults

BoadiceaJones well I think I cleared up some of your questions in my last post. I have never been intrusive by nature. I do have needs/expectations/passions like anyone else. I'm not sure, to tell the truth, I've ever hurt anyone but if someone is upset with me, for whatever reason, I usually try to make amends.

However, I've been told most people look at apology as admission of intent to hurt and that's just not the truth. But I've talked to people who say they never apologize for that reason. I wonder if they are right.

I do agree with the words from the bible; however, does my "sin" wash away the sin of others? I think part of my problem is not so much a habit of blaming.....it's just telling the truth about what horrible things people have done.

Not what I assume they have done..... or what I think they are capable of, but it's really true......actions speak a thousand words.

I do admire my son. Actually I admire both my kids. They have worked hard. My son just has this very logical unique way of looking at things, with just a touch of understanding (heart) but it's very eye opening for me. He seems to have a lot figured out.

He actually moved back home and we get along pretty good, thus all the talks about studies but also about many other things that are just very insightful for me. He teaches computer science at the college and only sad part I would think is he isn't looking to get remarried, but he's happy in that sense, so I think I am too.

Oh just as well; my daughter's kids are so cute it's torture so it would just be more torture for me haha if my son had kids.

And ah ha, I think that also answered one of your other questions with a big yes. So maybe it's for the best.

Oh, and I forgot. My husband. Eh....we have the same ideals but we are not on the same page in life. But it's ok. Not everyone gets that fairy tale or a life taken out of a page of the Notebook. These days, you are lucky just to like each other! Look at the divorce rate and tell me that's not true.

Our sex life is ok, considering the age and menopause. Don't really want any meds or things like that, I don't even drink. Menopause really pounded me so I'm looking at more exercise again; I used to lift quite the weights now I'm out of shape but slowly trying again.

BoadiceaJones Oh I missed something. Is 65 old? I think so. Yes, I didn't get into menopause until after 61 years of age. Maybe that was the problem.

Yeah but right now he can go to ...

There's a lot of hate in that sentence, Eugenia, specially for a Christian. Let it go.

And no, 65 is not old. I was still teaching teenagers full-time at that age. And at 68 I travelled to Rome, from New Zealand by myself, and had a wonderful 3 weeks all over Italy. At 69, my friend and I went to Istanbul and to Jordan for 2 weeks, swam in the Dead Sea, rode a camel, trekked to Petra, camped in Wadi Rum, in the desert, under the stars. You're a long way from being old. Seize the day!

M0nica Well apparently and unfortunately for me, that life did exist; clearly that is why I didn't notice the world was one big piece of excrement until more recently.

I actually tried therapy but I discovered a constant thing about it is that it creates more of a self centered feeling. That is quite useful when nobody else really cares and you need self care I suppose.

But it does more splitting of family than healing when it's all about you. It's only real use is a way to deal with others dismissive attitude of your feelings whilst theirs are of the upmost importance.

Maybe the world could use more mother love and apple pie, it certainly would be better than the crap going on now.

BoadiceaJones well it sure feels old to me. You are quite impressive, wowww !! I need to get in shape again.

VioletSky Good advice. Your'e right. Thank you.

CPL593H I'm pretty sure I made it clear my "forgiveness" meant I would never hold a grudge. But please, do not waste your time with people you know little about their lives and circumstances.

Fleur20 Much of what you said is helpful...thank you!

Yes - exactly!

I thought forgiveness automatically means not holding a grudge, but hey. Perhaps I misunderstood.

All I know about your "life and circumstances" is what you wrote here, of course. Your only conduit to a relationship with your grandchildren is via your daughter, your child. You are on very shaky ground and I would advise you again to take some steps back and try to re establish your relationship with her on a healthier footing.

CPL593H Then why the third degree about I have nothing to forgive, as though I expected an apology? I do not.

OK. Forget the forgiveness then. What do you think you have to do to have a better relationship with your daughter? I will stick to the fact that unless you do, you will not have one with your grandchildren, because she does call the shots.

You do justify yourself. Instead of that, how about trying to see her alone, on neutral turf and talking plainly to her, trying to rebuild the relationship?

No one on here, including me, has a vested interest in how this turns out for you. It won't affect out lives at all. Please consider that, if you think anyone is unreasonable.

*our

There is a disconnect here between the advice being given and the situation as you see it eugenia. I think this is because you are being given advice based on your inner views, but so far as you are concerned those inner views are private and your daughter is unaware of them. I think many posters, myself included, find it very plausuble that your daughter is more aware of your inner thoughts than you think she is, and is reacting to that.

The only other explanation for her behaviour is that you are as stealthy as you think you are and she's just a bad egg. I'm sorry, that just seems less plausible, not because i have any particular faith in your daughter, but because people are rarely as stealthy as they think they are. You make a point of saying that you know her very very well. She's known you probably more than half your life(?) I'll bet she knows you pretty well as well?

Eugenia - I asked about your son, because I suspected that what is the case might be the case. He's in his 50s, I assume? And back at home with you permanently?

Oh just as well; my daughter's kids are so cute it's torture so it would just be more torture for me haha if my son had kids.

Why is it always about you?

TYPO! I meant 40s, of course.

I know it's not my business, Eugenia, but what you think about a middle-aged man living at home with mom? Only asking, because my DS divorced several years ago, and I have a great deal more to be angry at my DIL for than you at your SIL. However, there's no way that I would allow my son (or daughter, if it happened to her) to move back home in their 40s. For a week or two to get over the heartbreak, but not as a permanent arrangement. For THEIR sake, not mine. Paddling about in perpetual amniotic fluid is really unhealthy, surely? Though I know it's a lot more common in the UK than here in NZ, I would have thought that the USA would have a broader outlook. To me, it's part of the whole picture of what's going on in your family. Especially the part about how it would be torture for you if your son had kids. That's so very sad. It's tragic, actually.
I'm signing off now, because I don't think that you actually want help at all. People's attempts to offer suggestions based on our own life experiences are not actually welcomed. There have been some really insightful offerings made, in good faith, to give you something to ponder upon. All you really want to do is parade your own prejudices and yes, vindictiveness. I wish you would listen to reason, Eugenia, as you still have a quarter of a century to live. But I'm not going to waste any more time trying to help. It's over to you.

Eugenia you appear to be answering posters but just not "listening". I suggest you read again from the beginning of the thread, write down the key constructive advice kindly given and very honest, then start thinking about it for yourself and working iout your way forward!

You and others are just going round in circles on here now. You need to listen!!

I haven't really told all of what she has done. I won't either, Suffice to say, some of you would be shocked and would have a different view. Yes, I justify. Bad habits form I guess when people are not happy with simple apology for getting them irritated with your feelings or feel you have no rights to say anything other than what they want to hear.

That is kinda my family. Look up scapegoating. I read perfectly as the scapegoat. And it's not ALL about me.....

They all have gotten mad at me when I do not control or agree with whoever is mad at whoever! When my husband has ever had an issue with my son or daughter.....he blames me when I do not do anything about their behaviors that he doesn't like or don't get mad at them for him.

It's my fault they act that way is what I am told. Yet they are grown adult people!!! I cannot control grown adult people. No kidding, he says I take their side when I usually am neutral or agreeing but really again, cannot control what they do or say.

My son and daughter have done this too in the past. When they would be mad at my husband for something, they would say I am at fault for his behavior because I don't somehow stop him.

My daughter has complained to me about my son and my son has complained about her in the past but usually again for some reason if not for me, they would not act that way. I get blamed for everything ,like I have some power I am not using to make everyone shape up.

We mostly all get along but when these things come up, it's always let's blame mom. I found out through research that this is hallmark scapegoating. There is one person who gets picked in that dynamic and it's really not a curable thing. Gotta learn to live with it.

This has created in me , a very defensive person. Call it justification, excuses, whatever, I call it self defense, survival. If I didn't do that I imagine I would just give up on life at this point, but I'm still trying to fight.

That's why I consulted here , to get some opinions and help. I did get some of that, but also a lot of judgement. I figure though, without the whole picture, it's hard for people to really know what I have to deal with. It's way too long to go into in such a forum.
A couple of people got it right, some learned behaviors my husband passed on to my kids is what has developed but things were pretty good anyway until my daughters life came unraveled.

Thanks to those who kinda got what is going on despite the lack of many events and details I just don't want to disclose in a public place. But I'm done with others who are arm chair psychologists.

I have a therapist already who I have told the whole history and she agrees my daughter and family are acting inappropriately towards me but her advice is I cannot change them so she helps with my defense, although she acknowledges I am dealing with unreasonable people so there is only so much I can do.

Guess I thought someone else had a different answer. Seems the therapist was right and I'm on my own. She said I have to be my own advocate; even that's hard when people don't want you to do so.

Guess that's all. I'm pretty much screwed so the only thing I can do is bury my own feelings and concentrate on what makes me happy; if that's grandkids, so be it. Time to be selfish because loving, caring and getting so involved , just didn't work out.

I'm done.