Looking for the right answer to criticisms.

Yes I agree with most you wrote Bluebelle. But it isn't so cut and dry really. But you misunderstand: I didn't care if the dad had a party or not; my point was it's a shame that we can't all be together for a party.

He's still my grandkids' dad, despite it all, but the situation forces us to be separate. To tell the truth, if my daughter and him would have just split, no betrayals or lies, right now I would still be there for my son in law. He is still family. But I do not want to betray my daughter by contacting him as someone still in his life and I know if I invited him to family things he would not come anyway.

People say divorce is only between two people but it forces others to comply with the situation sometimes. I am not the kind of person to do that; however, the horrible circumstances of what he did forces me to.

Like I said, had he not betrayed her, if they divorced under other circumstances, there is no way I'd feel like I couldn't still consider him family....in other words, I would have invited him to our party. I would think of him differently than I do now.

It's the betrayal part; just 2 months before he met that girl he was talking, making plans about my daughter and him buying a bigger place. He was fixing up the current one, installing a gazebo. He constantly posted cute dog and kid things on my daughter's facebook. He even posted a picture from the year before of her and my grandson with the caption how lucky he was.

My daughter had confided they were having some issues, for several months he had lost interest in watching there son while she graded papers and just wanted to play video games all afternoon. So that was causing some friction as she was exhausted during the first trimester of pregnancy.

My daughter adored him for 15 years......her life was all about him. Then came my grandson, as she waited until she was secure in her job before getting married and having kids. So they married after 9 years. They split after the 6th anniversary, just two years ago when my grandson was 2.

As far as being around too much, it is really just once, maybe a second day a week if lucky. I would love to watch them both, take them somewhere or even pick them up, take them to my house to give her loads of time to grade papers, but she won't let me.

She has developed an opinion I won't take care of them right....she is really strict on food, timing of food, tv time, play time, nap time....just about all of it. I mean, if one thing is "out of place" in her mind, then I'm not worthy of being alone with them.

I raised two kids, practically alone since my husband had to travel a lot for his work; they were healthy, happy and ended up super intelligent and strong, yet now somehow I was not good at taking care of kids in her opinion.

I do know there is more they know today on proper child rearing, feeding, safety, etc. but that doesn't mean I can't receive instruction on the newest and latest. I'm not sure but she looks at me as incompetent. Yet I have seen hazards in her home for toddlers, seen her stress out my grandson about food and how much sugar is in it ( for which now he seems to hate eating any food but treats, period) .

Seriously, she blames me for her being heavy, but she was not heavy as a child....when a preteen she got heavy and I think it was because she made new friends that were really into the Sweet Factory. I let my kids have goodies but was balanced.

She did slim down for many years as an adult but since her kids, she's big again. I imagine that's my fault now too in her eyes, because she thinks she was a fat child. She wasn't until pre teen when she made those new friends. I was looking at her childhood pictures and she was slim.

I do love my grandson intently. I think I bonded with him because for his first 2 years I watched him one day a week to save money for them on daycare. She wanted him in daycare the minimum 2 days to socialize him and the third day I cared for him. The other days of the week either she or her husband were off work. That one day a week was heaven.

That stopped, as I went through the most awful menopause, late in life and very suddenly. Couldn't sleep at all. When I was better, it was too late, they had split and her attitude changed almost overnight.

I offered to start watching that one day again, but she refused, saying I wouldn't take care of them right. She couldn't give me any examples other than I might forget one of my granddaughters' meals, since she eats more often than my grandson. That is pure speculation on her part, but I'm guilty as charged anyway.

I could, for the last 2 years, have saved her a ton of money with just one day of care a week, and I would have such a good time. I would feel a lot better about things too, I know it.

She'd rather pay the extra money. I buy take out meals anytime we are together; just bought us all passes to Disneyland in order to get a bit more memories with my grandkids. I spend a lot on them with Disneyland passes for us all....at least that's a time I can be with them too. So I guess she can afford it.

I love my daughter but I think she's hurt me so much I feel someday I won't be around her much. That's hurtful in itself to me but it's better than feeling so abused and used.

Oh, I forgot to add. I do still feel so horrible about what happened to her and the advice here was to not bother her about it. But I actually don't.....I did at first and got very bad responses from her.

I'm not one to continue going back for a beating, so the first time she snapped at me I vowed not one word again from me. Won't give her the satisfaction of yet more criticism. I get enough already as it is.

The only reason now for me is the grandkids or I wouldn't take even that, no matter how much I love her, I'd be peace out...I miss the daughter I used to have before other people came and ruined her. But she's just not coming back, so I am trying hard to deal with what remains.

Eugenia, when all this problem is over, she will come back to you.

Were you and your daughter co-hosts of the birthday party? You suggest that’s the case — would she agree? You suggest that, if your ex-son in law had not formed a relationship with another woman, you would you have invited him to the party. You understand that your daughter may not have been comfortable with you making that decision even in that case, yes?

If your daughter is hearing, seeing or sensing even a portion of the judgment about and involvement in her situation that you display here, I don’t doubt that she wants you to back off. It sounds like you view yourself as an integral part of this situation, but you are not nor does your daughter seem to want you to be.

I sure hope so Monica, thank you. Gran 1111, you misunderstand. I would not, obviously, make that decision of invite my son in law without my daughter's ok, of course; my main point was I personally would be ok with such a scenario. I would not want to make her uncomfortable.

However, in a situation where no wrongs were done, I would think it would be ok if I continued a relationship with my son in law; after all, he is the father of my grandkids. I don't think a whole family divorces a spouse, you know?

And whilst I would not impose on my daughter, there would be no reason for her to dictate any relationships I personally have, which may have included her former husband. I am an integral part of my own relationships, yes?

My involvement has been to cry for nights on end after it happened. I really didn't talk much about it with her, so she certainly has no reason to have me "back off". I have not said a word about it to her. I express my opinion here and I have confided in a sister in law who does not talk with her at all.

My daughter, however, has judged me and involved herself in my situations; in lecturing me how bad she thought my choice of husband was; how I raised her and her brother (who btw has expressed sincere gratitude of my raising of him, even bringing me to tears of joy) and the various judgements on my ability to take care of grandkids.

Don't get me wrong; I love my daughter, so much so that I have cried many nights, being so hurt by her. But there is a point where I start wondering why I let her hurt me. I have the grands to consider but when they grow up, not sure I will allow it to continue.

Thank you for further clarifying, Eugenia. I think I better understand what you’re saying.

Have you had a sit down and talked through with your daughter why she feels that way Eugenia?

That may help you in moving oast your current problems together.

Your son and daughter are different people, they may have needed different parenting. Maybe if you can understand her issues and hear how they affected her it might make things better for the future

I think she's probably picking up that you're biding your time until the grandkids are old enough to have an independent relationship with you?

Is it possible that you did forget some things while looking after the children when the menopause first started, ie before you stopped providing the childcare at that time. Perhaps your daughter doesn't know much about the menopause process or what it entails and you could reassure her that any impact on your memory (if there was such) was temporary (if it has been)?

Thanks Gran1111. Sometimes it's hard to pick up intent off the internet posts isn't it?

VioletSky. I have tried to talk to her like that and got blasted for it, so no more in depth talking. All I ended up doing is giving her more chance at criticisms and she got mad at me and didn't talk to me for 6 weeks.

Actually, we were super close up until high school. She did show signs then, but nothing really bad. Everyone said how lucky I was to have a daughter that liked to hang out with me.

Looking back, in high school she did once or twice act like she didn't like me, with no real cause, but I suspect that's when she made friends with, get this, the sister of my son in law.

This girlfriend is hard to describe but here's a clue....she is estranged from her mother by her own choice; she was raised catholic but is now a Wicken; she enjoys the occult , is morbidly obese, is in constant therapy, hates her mom and herself. She up and decided one day to become lesbian and got married to a woman which ended in divorce.

She talks about humanity coming together but displays hatred towards anyone who doesn't agree with her ideas about that. She is full on left wing let's cheer Antifa for burning down buildings, no joke, and all conservatives deserve to die.

Yes, this is my daughters best friend. To tell truth, I must have done something right in raising her because thank God she doesn't have quite the same intense hate in her heart. She has her political views but is more understanding of both sides and doesn't think people should be forced into believing everything on the media. So at least that.

Part of the reason her girlfriend (son in law's sister) is estranged from her mom is because her mom would not join her crusade in claiming gay people have it as bad in society as black slaves did!

I'm serious; she posted that on Facebook one time. Her mom, although it was against her religion, did not reject her daughters choice but it still didn't matter; her daughter expected a cheerleader for the gay community which her mom just could not do.

My daughter went through therapy, not sure if she still is but tell the truth I don't think it helped.

It's main purpose was to help her get over her husband, which I can tell (I know her), has not really happened but she hyper concentrates on her kids; I guess that might distract her, which is good, however puts enormous pressure on me and even my husband who tries to stay neutral and support her wishes with the kids, but she's also said some choice things about him too. We can do no right most days, unless we just simply get lucky.

Herefornow..... the answer to that is if she does, she must be a mind reader because I continually act like we are ok. I never pout say anything negative to her. I always tell her son he needs to listen to his mom; I offer to help her with things, act concerned if she needs anything, like I always have but lately my heart isn't really in it.

I am aware sometimes feelings can come out in facial expressions so I always concentrate on keeping mine very calm and smile a lot. But to tell the truth when I am around the grandkids, it's not really a fake thing. They are my only joy these days.

As far as menopause, she decided because I was so incapacitated (I would like to see her reaction to sleeping a total of 3 hours in 4 days on a regular basis) that I must actually be mentally ill, like bi-polar or something. Even when I finally saw an end to symptoms, she still believed that. I don't know what she thinks now and don't care as far as that nonsense goes. I love her but I am completely over her judgements......all of them......

I'm not really sure what the son in laws sister has to do with this but you don't just 'decide' to be gay, you either are or you aren't. You're sounding quite judgemental yourself there tbh.

I wouldn't have left my children with someone who was getting so little sleep to be honest, it doesn't sound safe, regardless of the reason or intent. Glad you saw sense to end the arrangement.

I'm not a therapist, psychologist, nor any kind of expert, Eugenia, just an old lady who has been through the mill of life. So I may be talking through a hole in my head. But these are my impressions:

You have a very ambivalent relationship with your daughter. You're the mother, yet she treats you like a child. You lack closeness and intimacy in your marriage, which you have been trying to gain from being your DD's best friend through school. You seem to be competitive with her in many ways, ("I'd like to see her reaction to sleeping...) and your relationship with the GC bears this out. You are needy, and you seem to regard yourself as a victim. You're trying to corner the 4 yr old's affection for yourself, putting an unfair burden on him. Your only joy is your GC. Really? Do you have a life outside the family? You give me the impression of being somewhat overbearing, and rather exhausting to be around. You focus on your own reactions a great deal. Did we really need to know about the 21-year old OW to understand YOUR situation? How did your daughter cope with the tensions in the home in her childhood? Did you really listen to her as a child, and keep communications open at all times? You've had a rough time with your marriage, but you can't carry her unhappiness, and project your own experiences.

Now, of course, I'm only going on the signals as I see them, and on a fleeting read. My opinion only, but I think that you need to back off completely. Find a life, and joy, somewhere else, for now. My lovely, wise MiL used to say "They'll need you before you need them." It worked for me.

Please note, my dear, that it's not my intention to upset or offend you. But self-analysis is so important to get things into perspective, and to prevent us being overwhelmed by our own emotions. By all means, call me a bee-atch and ignore my post if you think I'm being unfair or ignorant. I really wish you peace, and love, and all the best.

Didn't mean to sound judgmental, but literally I was quoting what my son in law had said about it, when it happened. Guess that was in my mind when I wrote.

She was very much into guys and it was sudden, so maybe that is what he meant by "deciding". She had just broken up with a guy she thought was the "one" but realized he was not going to commit. She was very broken up about it.

Overall, this girl was a bad influence and not a good person. I didn't realize this at first, as I tend to give people benefit of doubt even in the face of some things. But when truth is revealed, I'm not one to deny it either.

My son had made some critical observations of her from day one and he knew then what I have come to realize now. He was right.

One time years ago too, my son made an observation about my son in law too, that he thought was not the type to stick around in a marriage...a yes man to his wife without a conflict but definitely an opportunist in nature and had no real sense of family or loyalty.

I thought my son was insane to think that!!! How could he know or say that? At the time I thought my daughter and son in law had something very special. I didn't realize was one sided. So again, seems my son's judgements were simple truths and wise observations that completely escaped me. Wish I could read people like that.

She is a mean spirited judgmental witch (that is also literal; she claims to be a wiccan witch, casts spells, etc). Again, she has cut off her mom for no real reason except her own judgement. I know her mom; she was not the fully dedicated to kids type like me, but she certainly loved and tried to bring them up well.

I figure in high school, some of that anti mom stuff must have rubbed off on my daughter.....acceptance and fitting in with peers is very much a teenage thing.

Around that time, my daughter would try to pick a fight with me over nothing. I wondered why. But again, luckily at that time, my daughters life was good and we were close, so no mom hating attitude really stuck.

So my daughter and I remained close for a very long time. All the way up until her breakup.

You know, as upset as I am with her and all she has done to put me down and hurt me, if she would just say I'm sorry one day in the future, all is forgiven.

I have apologized to her for things in the past, unintended but nevertheless I apologize. I have love and can forgive. But some people don't want or care about that.

BoadiceaJones...well you are right on some counts and wrong on others but I get it, it's hard to really know without being part of or observing what happens in a situation.

I am impressed with what you said about her treating me like the child. It's so true. She gets that from her dad; he has always done that with me and his dad did that to his mom.

I figured because I got married so young and was a stay at home mom, didn't get out in the world, that might be it, but my MIL was a professor at a university yet her husband treated her like a second class citizen. So not sure that if I was a career person, I would have been treated any differently.

Now, I'm not at all competitive with my daughter with that statement. I was making a point: people cannot judge a situation, like the meno hell I went through, unless they also go through it.

I'm telling you, if I had not experienced it myself, I never would have believed it was even possible to have that sort of reaction to a normal biological change.

For quite awhile I actually thought it was something else wrong, had tons of tests.

I couldn't fathom it could be that bad; my mom had some issues but nothing like that. It is indescribable..... except imagine day and into the night being wired up but exhausted at the same time whilst sweating and freezing simultaneously with your heart racing all night and day, with maybe a few hours break now and then falling into a dream filled short sleep. So yeah, can't really watch after a toddler with all that going on.

Right after my meno, the breakup happened. So for me the last 3 years, starting with menopause and through this event has been non stop hell.

Right before it all, we were a happy, united family and thrilled beyond words. Every day I thanked God for the joy.

My daughter lost the love of her life. I lost a second son; my son lost a brother. My grandson lost a dedicated father who used put him first, not a teenage girl. I lost my daughter.....the one I have now is not the same.

So yes, I am guilty of feeling all I have left is my grandkids and my son.

My husband is not always there for me and because I had my kids young, I never endeavored into a job and making new friends. All my high school friends moved away.

My grandson is definitely my favorite; he has been after me since he was a baby. He sort of won me over rather than me win him over. I just hope I'm allowed to enjoy that while it lasts.

I am definitely not overbearing, I usually go with the flow and hide my hurts/disappointments in private. I never cry in front of anyone. I vent to others outside the situation; sometimes I get pointers on how to handle things. I've gotten a few here, so that I am thankful for.

So at least I can try to handle the hurt and maybe even have some joy before I die.

But, Eugenia, don't you see that you can have joy from all sorts of places. It doesn't have to be your family, and they should not have the responsibility of being everything to you - the source of the only love and joy in your life. You need to unclip yourself from them, and look for other things to make you happy. My family are scattered 900-3000 km from me. I haven't been able actually to see them much in the last 2 years, but that very distance is what allows you some flexibility in the relationship. It would have been easy, after working for 47 years, to have gone to live in the same town as the nearest DC, but I needed time for me after all that work. So it's visits several times a year, going to playgrounds and the pool, teaching them knitting and crafts, sending little care packages, holiday spends, boxes of baking and home-grown fruit, going on holiday together - for a short time, because as we know, fish and guests go off after 3 days. I have found such pleasure in developing new skills - painting, gardening, family research, charity work, teaching small classes and making lots of new friends. Families need to know that their older parents are happy, without having to be the source of that happiness, a burden on top of the commitments of family life with young children. They have to create their own domestic bliss, from the sharing and discarding of their own past experiences, a new entity, without either parental family becoming too intrusive. You cannot mourn your SIL as losing a son - he's a rat who betrayed your daughter.
I'm so sorry to say this, but "maybe even have some joy before I die" sounds quite disturbing.

BodaceaJones, Your observations are right I feel, I do think a lot of adults have unrealistic expectations of their relationship with ac and need to know they are not theirs ac best friend or responsible for their parents happiness and need to look at themselves. I know I didn’t.,

BodiceaJones I really wish I could think like you, I'd be better off. I just can't. It's been my kids all my life; now grandkids. I am way too attached, I know. I got married too young, kids stayed home long after high school. But I'm trying lately to focus on me and hopefully that helps me for those trying times with this situation. I appreciate all your and the others here advices and encouragements.

Absolutely, in agreement with BoadiceaJones and Allsorts. It is the absolute dependence of grandparents, especially grandmothers, on their grandchildren for their purpose in life that lies behind quite a number of estrangements.

Yet our generation of women have had far fuller lives than the generation before us. All but a few will have worked outside the home, many had enjoyable careers, travelled abroad and had other opportunities to widen thir horizons, why when we become grandparents, now so much later in life, do so many suddenly put blinkers on and reduce their lives to total dependence of grandchildren for our reason for living and only occupation.?

Eugenia.
You seem to have very intense relationships. There comes a time when our children become adults and we need to step back and let them live their own lives.
Perhaps if you found interests/ occupations outside the family they would see you as an
individual person in your own right. Your daughter certainly seems to have little respect for you. And certainly does not seem to treat you as an equal.
You talk here of your anxiety that she will cut you off from your grandchildren; if you are showing that anxiety as clearly to her it gives her a stick to beat you with whenever she wants. That is not an adult respectful relationship.
Your desperation screams in everything you have written here.
With regard to your former son in law, he is the one who betrayed your daughter, is it irrelevant who with.. he is the one who made the vows, he is the one who broke them. To show respect for your daughter you should not be in touch with him without her permission.
I really feel you need to step away from the intensity, find other things to occupy your mind and your time. Have something different to talk about when you do see your daughter, something that is just yours. Some news to discuss that is about your life that none of the family are involved in.
And when your daughter says something rude or insulting to you - do not be afraid to put her in her place and remind her that your are her Mother and will not be spoken to in that manner.
Please remember ... if you lie down - someone will walk over you.

Eugenia, I noticed the comment that your grandson is your favourite. Even if you think you've not overtly favoured him, your daughter will have noticed. I'm not saying it is the cause of all the issues between you but it could well be a contributory factor.

It does read that you are very enmeshed emotionally with
your daughters life and that doesn't seem to be working for her anymore; some of what you describe comes over as irritation on her part. As PP have suggested, taking several big steps back and concentrating on building up a more independent life for yourself may actually create a more healthy dynamic with her.

If daughter thinks you are repeating past problems with your grandchildren then, the clues are there aren't they?

Son happy with his childhood, daughter not.

Grandson favoured over granddaughter.

Son in law favoured over daughters feelings.

You have to fix this

Eugenia there are lot of people here giving you hard messages and constructive criticism in a respectful honest way. I think if you want to change your situation you really really need to listen, be honest with yourself and then look for ways forward that address the issues from everyone's perspective, not just your own. I hope that all the issues can be sorted out for your family.

Out of interest, Eugenia, and in case I missed it, is your son married, with children?

Very good messages here. Maybe it was my upbringing and young life that effects all this. My parents were great, very family oriented. I married quite young, 19. Both our families were family oriented and my kids had 2 sets of grandparents who lived near by. We were together often.. Both my mom and my MIL would always say family is most important.

Everything wasn't perfect; my marriage, finances, etc. but we were a united happy family. Overall our days were filled with movies, playing, going out places. We had fun and enjoyed family life.

And it just got better with grandkid we thought we'd never have. We made plans for family trips since finally after years of struggle, finances got much better.

But it just changed drastically overnight. And while yes, my son in law is the main blame here, I've come to realize in life that when you dangle a cream filled carrot in someone's face, usually they grab it.

There was a study, I think, that near 70% of men, of all ages, if they could absolutely choose the age of their partners, they would choose women in their 20's. Interestingly, it was my son who just brought it up one day out of the blue.

So I do place a lot of blame on the girl who could have just not gotten in the middle of a marriage that was in a struggle period.

Only reason I bring up the girl is because so many of you think blame is solely on son in law. It is not. But that doesn't mean I don't resent him and think he's a piece of sh** because I do. Yet again, my thing is forgiveness and even for him, if he decided he goofed and wanted to come back.

It might be my beliefs....repentance=forgiveness. Unfortunately I also believe no repentance=no forgiveness, which isn't popular among my fellow Christians but the bible refers to repentance to be part of the equation....repentance and rejection/stopping of evil ways.

Sorry to bring religion into it. I know many do not believe and frankly lately, I get that. I have questions too. But again, I mention this because some here think I favor my son in law over my daughter....that's a big no way! Right now, if he literally died, I'd only feel sad for my grandkids. Right now, he is nothing but a big thorn in life ruining the roses in the garden.

BoadiceaJones, to answer your question, my son had a brief marriage to a wonderful girl. Family oriented and we just loved her; her parents and my husband and I really hit it off.

Luckily the marriage was so short, we begrudgingly but naturally, of course, didn't see them after. I say luckily because it was a bit easier, not being involved long term with good people like they were. My son and his wife just started with severe personality differences right away. No kids.

Eugenia you are trying to live in a cloud cuckoo land where everything is mother love and apple pie. You were lucky that your childhood and marriage was so idyllic, although like most idylls, it meant ignoring uncomfortable facts and often causing lifelong injury and oppression to some family members.

Now you are in the real world that has always been there, whether you like it or not and has always included those with religious beliefs and those without. Although how you reconcile your religious beliefs with not forgiving people unless they say sorry first and presumably remedy the matter.

As I understand that, you means you want your SiL to leave his new partner, come back to his wife and resume life as if the separation had never occurred. Then you will forgive him? Have you considered what your daughter's reaction would be to something like this?

Your daughter's marriage has broken down. It actually doesn't matter what the reason is. You just need to deal with the fact that the rift has occurred and she is trying to build a new future for herself and the children.

Your constant need to go back to a past that I doubt actually existed and make the present conform to the past, is doing huge damage to you, your daughter and most of all your grandchildren. When the time comes, how are you going to be able to gt them to forgive you.

You have got to accept what your daughter says and wants and either support her wholeheartedly or move away.

The same with your grandchildren. You must stop depending emotionally on a 4 year old, and ruining his whole life for him by this abnormal relationship.

You need councilling to sort this emotional mess out and then open your life to other interests, other people. This will enable your DD and her children to do the same.

So I do place a lot of blame on the girl who could have just not gotten in the middle of a marriage that was in a struggle period.

Then your blame is misplaced. Assuming that your son in law wasn't kidnapped, bound, gagged and dragged away kicking and screaming, he could have "just not gotten" involved with the girl, knowing that he had a wife and children at home, his marriage was already in difficulty and that starting an affair with her would be the death knell to it. Wake up Eugenia please; for your own sanity and future.