Mum and Dad relationship

Escalated.?

VioletSky

When I took a break before estrangement I offered for them to see my children and they said no, not without me.

Then my older children started telling me why they didn't want to see them, so I made the decision for the younger children who... Well weren't bothered.

Now, I wish I had estranged myself and my children earlier.

Maybe it's OK to let children see them but given how abusive people manipulate children and how long it took me and my older children to figure it out...

Well...

Taking a risk with your children's mental health just because you can't be sure the person who abused you would abuse them...

Not a risk I would take now I know better

Every circumstance is different. Your circumstances were yours, not mine.

I made my decision, and I'm glad I made the decision I did for my children.

I didn't risk anything. ?

They have nothing but golden memories of their Nan and Grandad.

They were loving, caring grandparents and great grandparents.

I didn't allow my relationship with my mother to influence my children, or tip into how they felt about any of it. Not their problem.

She was what she was, I accepted that, and I have moved on, as I have since I became an adult. I can't change the past, or my childhood, and I give it very little thought.

DiamondLily
My mother is a different grandmother to mother.
She has always loved my oldest daughter, and they are still close.
She was never as interested in the younger ones, but they do continue to visit.
My brothers children, much younger than mine seem to be very fond of her, but she has very little interest in the great grandchildren.
I also never tell the children what she is really like, they know I don’t like her, that’s good enough.
Interestingly, after a visit, my eight year old grandson said to me, that he thought it was really sad that my own mum didn’t like me, so I guess they all pick up on it.

Two things can be true at once.

Bit of schrodingers cat situation.

The grandchildren abused

The grandchildren not abused

You both made a decision which turned out to be fine for you.

I don't see how either of you would need to worry about or feel bad about it in retrospect and can leave it there.

For me, it is now an unacceptable risk I would never expect anyone to take...

Would you both, in all honestly advise anyone you cared about to take that risk with their emotional abuser because it worked out for you?

In my case, I did everything I could to eliminate the risks before I let my kids near my mother. I set firm boundaries, reiterated regularly was was and was not acceptable, and limited contact until I was comfortable that the relationship would be different. I think it helped that I had been totally estranged from them for several years before I had the kids, so she was clear I’d walk away again at the first sign of anything amiss.

Also, I recognised that the physical distance would make a massive difference - we were close enough for short regular visits, no need to ever stay over, and far enough away that seeing each other was always a treat for them all. I took myself out of the situation as far as possible, and my husband almost always took the kids, so there were no ‘your mother this, your mother that’ references. It all worked, they had a good relationship, and I’m pleased for my kids.

It is, as people have said, for each of us to decide what we believe is best for our children - and that’s the only advice I’d ever give anyone facing these kind of choices.

Similar situation with my DC DiamondLily & Sara1954; my relationship with my mother was untenable but, without a shadow of a doubt, she loved my DC rather too much actually and I never enforced my non contact with her on them. The statement: Every circumstance is different. Your circumstances were yours, not mine is key in any discussion about estrangement, and one I've been repeating on here for years. Casting judgement on other people's decisions, without having the emotional maturity to understand that every relationship breakdown is unique in some way for those involved, and every recovery or coming to terms with the situation, takes a different route for each of us. Failure to recognise and understand those differences, undermines the true lived experiences of others and cannot be considered to be helpful, supportive or kind.

For me, it is now an unacceptable risk I would never expect anyone to take...
Would you both, in all honestly advise anyone you cared about to take that risk with their emotional abuser because it worked out for you?

You're again superimposing your experiences and strategies on others vs and challenging them for not making the same decisions as you. Others have had a different route into estrangement, and a different route out; they made their decisions based on what they personally know about the circumstances and the people involved. They know better than any one else. They did what they did and are satisfied that they took the right decisions at the time. You did the same, for the same reasons. Why are you so keen to invalidate them by even suggesting that the decisions they took were wrong?

Violetsky
I would never presume to advise anyone to allow their parents to have contact with their children.
But I feel personally, that the issue is between me and her, and as far as possible shouldn’t affect them.
In any case, two of them were late teens, and could make up their own minds, and the youngest one was always accompanied by her dad.
I think she bad mouths me to the oldest, and I think she would love to cause trouble there, but I can’t really do anything about that.

And that's the right advice Zonne.

It's no more 'wrong' to take steps you took, to ensure the safety and well being of your children and enable them to have a relationship with their GM, then for a parent who has suffered abuse to prevent a relationship with their abusive parent(s).

You and me both Chewbacca "for years".

Chewbacca

It's actually more my education than my experience.

We are coming to take emotional abuse very seriously.

We are coming to understand children very well and why certain issues exist.

I don't think many people would leave their child alone with someone who sexually or physically abused them.

Now we know that emotional abuse is just as serious.

Now, I would never advise for a child to be left alone with a person who has been known to be abusive.

That's the truth, it is very simple. I cannot say anything else.

You're still doing it vs; you're still applying your own experience of abuse and why you're estranged from your family, as being the same experience and reason for everyone else. That's simply not true. Your education seems to have begun, and ended, with the analysis and treatment of physical, sexual, emotional and psychological abuse as being the only reason for estrangement and, from my own, and others on this forum, that obviously isn't the case and so the strategies that you quote wouldn't be applicable. As I've said to you hundreds of times before, there are many reasons for estrangement. They're all difficult, they're all reached from different problems unique to them (not only abuse), they all get resolved in different ways and they're all just as valid as anyone else's. Not all estrangement is caused by abuse; you only have to read this thread to see that; and therefore your blanket therapy for dealing with those is inappropriate. It really, really, isn't that simple. Estrangement never is.

My mother is a manipulative, cold woman.
But I think I am her only victim, my brother had the good sense to know when to shut up, and yes, she most definitely emotionally abused me, but I think I’m the only one.

Chewbacca my comments are in the context of abuse.

It is fine you do not agree but saying that my experience negates my opinion is unreasonable.

I am very good at my job and they know my background.

It is seen as a strength and why I was chosen specifically for extra training to support children.

You are welcome to carry on that rhetoric but I'm not discussing it with you further.

I worked in a child protection department for a local council for a lot of years. This also involved works with Women's refuges.

I was involved in working with over 3000 cases of child abuse. I know what every sort of abuse involves, in all its variations.

Seeing what adults can do to each other, and children, appalled me. Some people are truly evil.

I was well aware to be alert to any signs of any abuse aimed towards my children, no matter who it involved.

So, I assume that makes me experienced in my own scenario, and educated, in the wider sense?

I still wouldn't do a thing differently in regards to my children and my mother.

Every set of circumstances is different, because families are complicated.

I wouldn't presume to tell others what they do though.

I wouldn't presume to tell others what they do though. ????

That's fine Diamondlily

We are in discussion and I would hope all opinions are welcome.

I have given mine and explained my reasoning

I understand what you are saying, Chewbacca and Sara but there is a mountain of research which shows that manipulative Grandparents do a great deal of harm. For example, Sara mentions that her mother bad mouths her to one of her children. One of the things that happens when a GP does that, is you make a child uncertain about who to trust. Do you trust the parents or the GP? It can have long term damaging effects that extend into your adult relationships.
Showering one GC with love whilst the others get much less can ruin the relationship between siblings and the favoured GC can actually end of suffering more.
I think what Violetsky is trying to say, is that it isn't only her experience of intergenerational trauma that colours her views but is also the mountain of research together with experience which colours her view. That doesn't make your decisions wrong, just different.

Gosh that must have been a stressful occupation DiamondLily. Before retirement my brother was a family solicitor and for a time, represented children in abuse cases.

He gave it up after many years when he got to the point where it was all too much for him and was affecting his mental health. He said the same, some people are truly evil. They had to be to do what they did.

I wonder if your training and experience enabled you to have confidence that the boundaries etc. you put in place, were sufficient to protect your children whilst enabling that relationship with their GP.

It must be difficult when dealing with such cases as a professional and with your own history, not to allow your past to influence any conclusions you will have reached.

As you say "every set of circumstances is different, because families are complicated".

Icanhandthemback yes exactly, thank you.

Icanhandthemback
I can see your point, but by the time when I cut my mother off for good, my eldest daughter was more or less grown up, so I couldn’t have stopped it even if I’d wanted to.
My son, not really very keen on her, would never take anything she said about me seriously, and the youngest has had less of a relationship with her anyway.
Her preference for the oldest is glaringly clear, always has been, she always liked to get her away from me, and have whispered conversations.
But, I still think on balance that it’s the right thing to let them decide for themselves, I can’t dictate who they have a relationship with, and, they’re all grown up now with children of their own.

I think honestly, in my situation I was lucky.

The oldest had been favouritised but it was him who came to me and said he didn't like her behaviour.

I would have let them see the children before that point and I did offer.

It was a few years later I went back into education and my perspective changed. Its been over that time that more stories emerged from my children too. When I asked why they didn't tell me sooner, I got different answers from different children. Here are 2.

"I didn't want to upset you"

" I thought she was saying those things because I was bad"

It took me half a lifetime to wake up to abuse. Even years of friends with good relationships being worried and telling me xyz was not normal.

The fact that my children were ever in a position where they thought they should hide something to protect me or they didn't tell me what was going on because they felt they deserved it...

Well that is horrifying to me quite honestly.

What is worse would be if they never saw the truth and just internalised those messages given to them by an abuser.

So my experience does matter in my situation but it was education that helped me understand my experience and that of my children so that I could support then better with theirs.

That's everything we all are at the end of the day, a culmination of education and experience.

I would never advise anyone to leave a child with an abusive person.

But I would also never judge them for having done so if it did go wrong and I would always support them.

Because abusive people make life difficult and complicated and the blame belongs with them.

I see that Violet, I can just hear my mother saying,the trouble with your mother is this, and the trouble with your mother is that.
When my dad was alive he wouldn’t have allowed it.
I hope I haven’t allowed any damage to be done, I don’t think so.

It's difficult Sara and I'm sure it's easy to regret things but if the balance has come down in the favour of a happy resilient child then that's what you have and you did what you felt was right...which ultimately is what we all try to do.

Well, non abusive parents anyway

Smileless2012

Gosh that must have been a stressful occupation DiamondLily. Before retirement my brother was a family solicitor and for a time, represented children in abuse cases.

He gave it up after many years when he got to the point where it was all too much for him and was affecting his mental health. He said the same, some people are truly evil. They had to be to do what they did.

I wonder if your training and experience enabled you to have confidence that the boundaries etc. you put in place, were sufficient to protect your children whilst enabling that relationship with their GP.

It must be difficult when dealing with such cases as a professional and with your own history, not to allow your past to influence any conclusions you will have reached.

As you say "every set of circumstances is different, because families are complicated".

Yes, it was. To be fair to my mother, she never undermined me to my children.

If I'm honest, I think we reached a sort of unspoken truce - I saw how the children thrived with her and my dad, and loved that they all had a good relationship, and she loved them, and knew, obviously, that I could have stopped her seeing them.

It worked for us, but every situation varies.?