I really think I would have made a good grandfather.

There is a fine line between loyalty and accountability

I would expect my partner to call me out if I was out of line

I feel rather sorry for Danny's wife; she seems to have had a lifetime of poor mental health and is now suffering from a disease that will get worse, not better. Perhaps the children who have grown up with a parent, who has had a lifetime of Fibro, RA, Bipolarism, Depression etc, perhaps feel that they just can't cope now with the dementia as well. It must have been very difficult for them when they were young.

Norah

Casdon, It's my opinion that loyalty to my husband comes first, before any other relationship. *Opinions may vary!*

They certainly do Norah.

Hithere, I can't fathom calling out a bipolar, depressive, who has dementia, what does that look like, how does that work?

"I [Name] take you [Name] to be my wife/husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy law. In the presence of God I make this vow."

Hithere

There is a fine line between loyalty and accountability

I would expect my partner to call me out if I was out of line

Yes I agree - I would expect my partner to talk to me if my behaviour was inappropriate etc. However the additional problem here is dementia and mental health problems which may make that somewhat difficult, in terms of bringing about full understanding of the problem and a change in behaviour.

That is why in these circumstances there may need to be a different approach in terms of maintaining relationships etc with ACs and GCs.

Danny I still think the key here is for you to have a conversation with your son about:

*his reasons for not wanting to have you and his mother visit (he presumably sees you as "a package"?)
*explaining to him the difficulties that you are dealing with with his mum
*agreeing together a way forward ...for his family, for you, for his Mum...and those ways forward may well be different for each of you.

But talking honestly is the key to fining solutions!

There seems to be an empathy bypass for a woman who has had lifelong bipolarism, depression, and now dementia. How can anyone "call her out on it"; it's not as if she's had those illnesses deliberately is it? I'm fairly sure she'd rather not have had such poor mental health all her life. It's a poor outlook for those GNetters who are suffering with depression or bipolarism; looks like their offspring will be "calling them out" at some point.

Well said Chewbacca.

Which commenters are lacking empathy?

The title is so sad, resigned to not being a grandfather. It doesn't have to be that way for DannyD

The son now also has a wife and children that he must put first.

My husband was understanding of his fathers mental health problems all through childhood, teenage years and as a young man. I supported him as his wife even though I was sometimes frightened.

But it was when he saw his own children distressed and frightened that he said no more.
They were not to suffer as he had done and have to work to overcome the effects.

The OP may be a wonderful grandad given the chance but his son clearly believes that his family should not be in contact with his own mother. That is not selfish but a responsible decision based on his own experiences.

It also matters how those MH issues were managed

Spot on, Chewbacca

Chewbacca

There seems to be an empathy bypass for a woman who has had lifelong bipolarism, depression, and now dementia. How can anyone "call her out on it"; it's not as if she's had those illnesses deliberately is it? I'm fairly sure she'd rather not have had such poor mental health all her life. It's a poor outlook for those GNetters who are suffering with depression or bipolarism; looks like their offspring will be "calling them out" at some point.

I agree Chewbacca. It just is not as straightforward as "calling her out" or "talking it through" in these circumstances.

I remember someone from social services coming to speak to a lady with dementia in a care home - in effect, to call them out on some quite unsavoury things she would shout at carers, visitors and so on.

People who knew her of old told us she would have been absolutely mortified, as this unkind behaviour was diametrically opposed to the woman she was.

The inclusion team member came smartly out of her room with "F* Off, big nose!" ringing in her ears.

We would have the cure for dementia in our grasp if it was as simple as telling someone sternly to stop it.

Love it Miss A

It doesn't sound as though the inclusion team member had very much success with managing the mental health issues there MissAdventure!

After passing pleasantries, I told him I was curious why neither he nor his wife would contact us. I said that I thought our Christmas visit went well, and thought the past was behind us. He told me it was not me, that he didn't like the way "mom was." I said well I guess I'm just collateral damage, huh? His response "It is what it is"

Please try and find a way of having a relationship and being there for your son. He seems to want a relationship? It seems like you're looking for approval? Because of your wife's illness?

You can have both, you just need to be respective to both parties.

When my mother contracted Alzheimer's, she was verbally awful to everyone, even those she did like.

My GC loved her and wanted to see her, but they were all still quite young, and I wasn't sure how this was going to work.

But, we sat them down, explained, in simple terms, that GGM was very poorly, and it made her say silly things.

That she still loved them, but she was poorly and couldn't help it.

They got the hang of it. They just carried on chatting about their lives, and ignored the insults.

If you keep it simple, children can understand the effects of Dementia. But, it needs the adult members of the family to all be singing from the sane hymn sheet.

The OP, who seems to have disappeared, doesn't seem to have that.

It's a shame that his ACs are reacting like this, because he will need a lot of support.

I completely agree with you Norah and would not visit my AC and GC if my husband were unable to do so with me. I'm not sure how you can call someone out regarding their behaviour, when they have an illness which manifests its self in terms of unacceptable behaviour.

As you say Chewbacca there seems to be an empathy bypass for this lady.

Danny does say in his OP that neither his son or d.i.l. had contacted him since Christmas so it appears that he is as his son agreed "collateral damage" but why does he need to be?

How is he supposed to maintain a relationship with his son and his son's children if his son no longer bothers to contact him?

Telephone calls and text messages wouldn't involve the OP's wife, nor would sending photo's of the children from time to time but that requires a willingness on the son's part which from what Danny says at the end of his OP, doesn't appear to be there.

I'm sorry to say that I don't agree Poppy that the son seems to want a relationship or that the OP is looking for approval, just some understanding.

It is a shame DL that this couples son and daughter are reacting in this way and can't offer the support, and have the understanding their brother clearly has.

I remember having a similar talk with our boys when they were young and we were visiting their GGM. We had one or two embarrassing visits over the years but explained them away just as you did.

I really can't understand that, I'd never expect my husband to stop seeing our children. That would be a way for me to stay connected and hope for reconciliation one day.

If it were reversed, nothing would stop me seeing my children. If he couldn't or wouldn't have a positive relationship with them that would never stop me. Those are my children.

I wouldn't expect my husband to do so either. It isn't something I would do.

I don't think that I would want a relationship with anyone, AC or not, who couldn't show some understanding, tolerance and compassion towards my partner, who is suffering from an illness over which they have no control. I would be horrified if my AC's said that they couldn't deal with someone who had a disfiguring cancer and it was "upsetting "for their children. I see no difference just because the illness in question is affecting the brain.

No sweeping exit
or offstage lines
could make me feel bitter
or treat you unkind
Wild horses
couldn't drag me away

Really does depend whether this is a behaviour change or a long standing issue that mum can't hide in company any more.

If it is a problem that the children have faced for a long time, they won't be able to hide how it impacts them from their children and their children will be impacted.

There is room for everyone's feelings, and if the grandchildren are not safe around grandma then grandad should not have to miss out

Who would want him too? He is the one asking for support here and I support him seeing his children and grandchildren

Normandygirl

I don't think that I would want a relationship with anyone, AC or not, who couldn't show some understanding, tolerance and compassion towards my partner, who is suffering from an illness over which they have no control. I would be horrified if my AC's said that they couldn't deal with someone who had a disfiguring cancer and it was "upsetting "for their children. I see no difference just because the illness in question is affecting the brain.

You clearly haven’t lived with somebody who has a serious mental illness or dementia if you think that Normandygirl. Without further explanation from DannyD we don’t know the exact situation. His wife may be violent, angry, have a vicious tongue, have mistreated them as children, be deliberately unkind to their children, withdrawn to the extent that she doesn’t communicate at all or many other scenarios. He is standing by her, but he clearly understands why his children don’t want to keep in contact with their mother, we don’t so we shouldn’t judge them without the full facts. This post is about him maintaining his relationship with them despite the difficulties.

I agree Casdon but from what the OP has said his D and now one of his son's doesn't want to maintain a relationship with him as well as his wife.

Since Christmas he's only had sporadic texts from his son and in his last conversation with him, when asking if he was going to be collateral damage was told "It is what it is".

As I posted earlier text messages, 'phone calls and sending photo's of the children would involve Danny in their lives without involving his wife, but it appears that this isn't going to be the case either.