Interesting watch

I think we basically agree that name calling isn't helpful and contributes to some Estrangements

Which is not the same as my commenting on judgements being made about someone's Estrangement based on one example of name calling, which is what I have been doing throughout my comments on the subject. I have not been saying that name calling is not a cause

No I see no particular purpose in PMing on it

OK, well you are addressing me and my comments are general

Although I have said perhaps it's best not to bring personal situations to a discussion if you aren't happy for them to be discussed

Only what is said on this thread though, anything said elsewhere would not be relevant. People can and do change over time.

Good posts Madgran.

I think we would all agree that name calling could be a reason for estrangement however, there is of course a difference in expressing one's view of a person once the estrangement has happened on a forum where one's identity is hidden, to name calling the estranger prior to the estrangement.

As I posted earlier, having one's personal situation discussed is not the same as that person being criticised for the language they choose to use.

EP's are sometimes called narcissists. I refer to our ES's wife as a narcissist because I believe that she is one. If DiamondLily believes her husbands EAC are 'gutless wonders' that is her opinion and she's entitled to say so.

People can say whatever they wish you say within forum guidelines

If someone has said something on this thread you think breaks guidelines then you are at liberty to report it.

Otherwise people can express themselves at liberty

"Narcissist" is interesting, is it name calling?, It is a recognisable and diagnosable mental health illness that enables understanding of human behaviour

Can it be used as an insult? Definitely! Would saying your DIL is a narcissist based on behaviours you have witnessed be name calling? I don't think so Smileless I'm not sure it is the same, it helps you explain yourself to others and understand your own situation

The other valid point is, is it acceptable to call someone undiagnosed a narcissist at all? Well, I don't know

A lot of mental health practitioners now talk about something called "narcissistic victim syndrome" realistically if that makes it into the DSM, narcissists will be diagnosed without their actual presence but in no official capacity in their medical records

I do wonder what will happen with that

I think it can be viewed as name calling. We don't have a professional diagnosis of our d.i.l. so as you say, we've based our opinion on the behaviour we've witnessed.

DiamondLily referred to her husband's EAC as 'gutless wonders' based on the behaviour she has witnessed. It helped some of us understand her situation and enabled her to explain her particular experience.

I don't agree that if narcissistic victim syndrome is accepted by the DSM that that will see someone being diagnosed as a narcissist without being present.

The diagnosis will diagnose the person with the syndrome, not the person they believe to be responsible for them having it.

I did say it wouldn't be an official diagnosis

It's tricky

I'm not really interested in pursuing the rest of that, I haven't said anything about anyone personally on this thread

I've shared my thoughts on name calling only

I think most people on Gransnet are probably sufficiently clued-up to be able to pick their way unguided through the rights and wrongs of name-calling, and would consider this a safe space in which to give vent to the strong personal feelings behind the decision to do so.

I made a decision never to speak to my mother again, I’ve stuck to it for twenty years, and I shall continue to do so.
If one of her friends should ask her, and I’m sure they do, why I’ve cut her out of my life, I’m pretty sure she would say she’s absolutely no idea.
Not true, she knows exactly why I don’t want anything else to do with her, she pushed me into a corner, and I snapped, and I’m so grateful she did, because being free from her has made me happy.
I’ve no desire to build bridges, I have always taken my share of the blame, I know I’m far from perfect, but some relationships are really not worth preserving.

Exceot this is a discussion about causes of estrangement, as well as barriers to reconciliation

Sometimes family members have different views of name calling and would need to hear each other out there

So having the discussion here may be helpful

Name calling is name calling. Using anger to justify it is wrong. Using the excuse that it is okay when we describe personal circumstances is illogical. The issue is with the name calling itself, not the description of whom it’s directed toward. But the defense of the name calling actually illustrates exactly my previous points about accountability. Those who listen and self-reflect will always have better shot at meaningful reconciliation. Those who don’t can hardly complain about the lack of relationship.

And there is no such thing as a “safe space” to use derogatory language and insults. People are free to point out the toxicity of it, and correlate it back to the state of the relationship being discussed. They are not unrelated. When we get to the point where we feel so “right” that a basic thing such as refraining from name-calling actually has to be debated, it’s really hard to accept that there is only one side who is problematic. The behavior is indicative.

I agree Delila.

It suprises me sometimes because most, whether they are children or adults, do not like to be called names

What I teach children is that, they don't want to be the person doing something they don't like, to someone else and I remind them how it makes them feel.

By relating it that way, they understand the concept quickly

lyleLyle

Name calling is name calling. Using anger to justify it is wrong. Using the excuse that it is okay when we describe personal circumstances is illogical. The issue is with the name calling itself, not the description of whom it’s directed toward. But the defense of the name calling actually illustrates exactly my previous points about accountability. Those who listen and self-reflect will always have better shot at meaningful reconciliation. Those who don’t can hardly complain about the lack of relationship.

Yes name calling is name calling. And not helpful. But using one specific phrase used in a particular context to make a generalised judgement about the reasons for that persons Estrangement is not making excuses. Making such judgements based on the use of that phrase in a particular context on a thread could possibly suggest a lack of empathy in understanding human nature. Noone is perfect and making absolutely no allowance for that, certainly doesn't show empathy. But of course, as I said only could suggest that because anything else would be making a judgement based on one particular aspect of someone's comments, which I would not wish to do!

This is abthread about causes of estrangement and barriers to reconciliation

Name calling fits and I'm glad it came up, that's a positive

VioletSky

This is abthread about causes of estrangement and barriers to reconciliation

Name calling fits and I'm glad it came up, that's a positive

Yes, its good that it is being discussed as a cause of Estrangement and a barrier to reconciliation

I am glad that making generalised judgements has also come up, for the same reason.

My only point was that all estrangements have different causes, and that no one knows better the causes than those actually involved. Others, saying things like "you must know the reasons" " you couldn't have listened" and "you need to apologise" is not really relevant, and actually can cause more hurt.

I have nowhere to go with the three estrangements I mentioned - one wants money for addictions (no chance), one doesn't do "old people" and has cut off his mother and MIL as well. Short of finding the elixir of eternal youth, there's nothing to be said.

My ex - well God knows. An NHS colleague of DDs thinks some of these on/off estrangements are a severe form of attention seeking by the estranger. A need for constant drama sort of thing.. Who knows? He won't say, so nothing to be said, especially by me. We haven't exchanged a word in 20 years. DD has decided to now drop the rope and let him get in with it.

What I call them is irrelevant to anything.

But, this thread isn't about my family, so that's all I'm saying about it.

I do think, there needs to be more acceptance that estrangements aren't always the fault of the EP, and that sometimes all the talking and listening in the world will not change a thing. Some situations are insoluble. B🙂

The reason for our estrangement was that our ex-dil is not a nice person who didn't want her husband or children to have any relationships she couldn't control. She started by cutting off his family and then stopped him seeing his friends. She achieved this by threatening she would tell people he was hitting her and that she would stop him seeing his children if he didn't do what she wanted. She had absolutely no interest in reconciliation. I daresay she has some sort of personality disorder but putting a label on her wouldn't have helped. I know many other estranged parents are in this situation - especially when the estrangement has been instigated by an in-law. Despite this they are still being told that they must have done something wrong - which makes a heartbreaking situation much worse.

"What I call them is irrelevant to anything" of course it is DiamondLily. It's how you see them because of the estrangements and not the cause of the estrangements.

As Madgran posted yesterday, judgements are being made on estrangement based on one comment about those who've estranged.

Estranged because you wont give money to fund a drug addiction. Estranged because the estranger doesn't do "old people". A father who estranges his children for 10 years, re connects with no explanation or apology, then estranges again.

Two out of three that are clearly due to the behaviour and attitude of the EAC. The cause of these estrangements and the barriers to reconciliation are in the hands of the ones responsible for estranging.

You know the reasons, you've listened and short of funding a drug habit and as you said "finding the elixir of eternal youth" there's nothing to be done and nothing to apologise for.

Coercive control is not uncommon in estrangement eddie and the first two sentences of your post describes ours, the only difference being our ES remains married.

There's nothing to be done while the controlling partner continues to have control.

My feeling is, that some relationships are beyond help, and I think in some cases like my own, there was never really a relationship in the first place, so nothing to work with.
I have a friend, should say, had a friend, a very close friend. Something happened between us that couldn’t be put right.
There aren’t many days when I don’t miss her, and regret being so stubborn about it, I miss her all the time.
But my mother, I hardly spare a thought for, she’s out of my life and I’m grateful.
Just trying to say, some people you just want to walk away from, while with others, you regret your estrangement, while knowing you can’t fix it.

You've said that very well Sara.

Smileless2012

Coercive control is not uncommon in estrangement eddie and the first two sentences of your post describes ours, the only difference being our ES remains married.

There's nothing to be done while the controlling partner continues to have control.

Smileless and Eddiecat Yes, I've read of many estrangements, involving spouses.

It seems there is more often conflict between mothers and daughter-in-laws, than with son in laws.

I get on fine with my DIL - but, we are very different characters, and I'm not sure how it would be if they lived locally. Son and family live in America, and just visit every year or so.

She is a drama-llama, and I sometimes have to just nod and smile when they visit lol. But, my son loves her he's very happy, and that's all it needs to be really.

No problems with my SIL - he's great, and we see a lot of them.

Sometimes I think we just have to let go of some people - my grandkids are adults now, and they feel they have no relationship with my ex (their birth grandad). They said at Xmas that DH had been their grandad in all meaningful ways. A bit sad really.

Keep well. 😉

My daughters ex is completely estranged from his father. Therefore, two of my grandchildren have a grandparent they don’t know exists.
He lives locally, it seems sad never to know of his existence, not my business though.