Our DD estranged us then went off to university

Smileless2012

As you say Dickens the daughter is estranged from her parents and has been for 3 years. There is nothing in DW's posts to suggest that she and her H have been anything other than supportive, so for anyone to suggest otherwise IMO is inappropriate.

DW says right from the start that her daughter is academically bright.

When people write posts like this, looking for advice/ thoughts / support, they word them fairly carefully usually in order to give sufficient information for us to understand the matter, but being careful not to say something that might be too personal or that might identify them.

So we have to take it at face-value more or less, but of course some will 'read between the lines' and interpret what's been said accordingly. And that is a problem (which is why I personally have never posted a "AIBU" type of post, or sought advice / support on here).

The OP hasn't emphasised her emotions - apart from bewilderment - but that doesn't mean that she's not feeling the pain of the estrangement. She obviously is trying to keep the lines of communication open, and treading on eggshells wondering if her mails are too much or too little.

As you say, there's nothing on the 'face' of the post to suggest that her parents are anything other than supportive, and to imply that they don't want to help her financially, rather than them not being in a position to do so, is not very helpful.

DogWhisperer, it is possible that your daughter hooked up with the trans community. It is de rigueur for young people who identify as trans to cut off contact with family, supposedly because family are (according to them) bigots and transphobes, but I think it's really about rejecting the person's own past. I say this partly because your daughter requested her passport and her birth certificate, and she might have done so to change her gender markers. The current trans culture has little to do with trans people of yore. It's a youth subculture, even a cult, and cutting off family is a way of establishing membership (as are taking hormones and having healthy body parts removed, unfortunately). My son has been in the cult for two years, also no contact.

miperrita

DogWhisperer, it is possible that your daughter hooked up with the trans community. It is de rigueur for young people who identify as trans to cut off contact with family, supposedly because family are (according to them) bigots and transphobes, but I think it's really about rejecting the person's own past. I say this partly because your daughter requested her passport and her birth certificate, and she might have done so to change her gender markers. The current trans culture has little to do with trans people of yore. It's a youth subculture, even a cult, and cutting off family is a way of establishing membership (as are taking hormones and having healthy body parts removed, unfortunately). My son has been in the cult for two years, also no contact.

I say this partly because your daughter requested her passport and her birth certificate, and she might have done so to change her gender markers.

When you apply for student finance you need proof of identity and I believe the application form asks for your passport details (assuming you have one).

At some point she might also need her birth certificate for all the various forms she has to fill out.

... and she might have intended to travel!

SporeRB

Okay, I got it now. To apply for student finance as an independent student where she will get the full student loan, maintenance grant and bursary, DW’s daughter has to prove to the university that she has been estranged from her parents for a year.

Maybe, that is the reason why she has not been in contact with DW for three years. She does not want to jeopardize her university funding.

I read it as this too. I wondered if she has taken it literal and genuinely thinks she cannot contact her family until after she has finished the course?

That said, I have one at uni atm and firstly you just find the extra money. The loans and grants don’t even cover the rent on halls unless you share a room with someone if you only qualify for the basic income, which I feel is wrong but it is how it is. I do think though that it must put some students off applying if family cannot help support. We have to pay for ours phone, car insurance, the top up rent is @ £1.5k per academic year and we give £50 allowance each week which is apparently quite low but it pays for food.

Secondly, ours hardly ever contacts us 😂 I think he just completely forgets he has a family when he isn’t here! Maybe for some there is an element of just coping/getting by to all this

I remember having to produce my birth certificate when I got a job and as Dickens says ID in the form of a passport and other documents is is needed to apply for student finance, opening a bank account, all sorts of things - and travelling.

Dickens

DogWhisperer

We couldn’t really get her to engage constructively with these discussions. Maybe she thought we had a pot of money stashed away somewhere and we were just being mean, but the truth was, at that time we really didn’t.

Did the discussions include the option of her taking out a student loan? As Cadenza123 mentioned and Smileless2012 highlighted, that's the normal route for students whose parents can't afford the fees - though obviously your income would affect the maintenance part of the loan. But all students are entitled to up to £9250 a year to pay the tuition component (I think that's the current amount).

Is it possible she's estranged herself in order to get the maximum - as an estranged student? From what I've read, admittedly, very little, even minimum contact with you could alter her estranged status and therefore her entitlement.

That would be an explanation for the fact that she's simply not responded - at all, about anything.

www.ucas.com/finance/additional-funding/financial-support-students-not-supported-their-parents-estranged

UCAS clearly details the criteria for 'students not supported by their parents (estranged)'

I'm working on the assumption that adult children who deliberately go "no contact" with their parents always do it for a reason. If they are mad at you for some real or perceived slight, they usually make it clear, at some point at least. Complete silence is unusual.

Dickens, it's not unusual these days for kids to estrange loving parents and to give no reason. It's a trend, and there are websites dedicated to estranging parents. Giving no reason or warning makes it all the more hurtful (more power for the kiddo!). Often in these situations, the parents' relationship with their other kids is just fine, and the parents didn't treat the child who estranged any differently. I don't buy that the daughter did this solely to qualify as estranged for university funding, as many have suggested. If so, what is her message to her mom? That the relationship is worth nothing if mom doesn't fork over cash at a moment when she isn't able to? That it is purely transactional?

Of course people produce passports for many reasons.

Not unusual for children to estrange parents giving no reason the parents hear and accept. Parents need to listen to what is said. I know of estranged parents who 'have no idea' because they never accepted (heard) their failures.

There sincerely isn't a trend for estranging parents...

Some estrange because they are unreasonable people with high expectations

Some estrange due to having an abusive partner who separated them from loved ones to hide abuse and control them

Some estrange due to family members damaging their mental health or happiness

I'm truly sorry for the situation you find yourself in with your son miperrita and as you say, many parents find themselves estranged with no warning of what's to come, and no reasons given for their actions. Not necessarily because they refuse to accept the reasons given, so have failed to hear what they've been told, but quite simply because no reason has ever been given.

I don't doubt that's the situation in some cases, but unless one knows the EAC and the parents concerned, it would be wrong for us to judge. Where there's an abusive/controlling partner involved which as VS has rightly said happens in some cases, any kind of explanation from the EAC is hardly likely to be given.

Not every parent is in a position to just find the extra money JaneJudge, even if they are not so stretched financially that this precludes their AC from accessing financial aid.

We were fortunate to be able to assist our DS but he still needed to make use of the student loan available, or he wouldn't have been able to go to uni. Parents also have to consider if they'll be able to provide financial assistance to any other children they have.

miperrita

Dickens, it's not unusual these days for kids to estrange loving parents and to give no reason. It's a trend, and there are websites dedicated to estranging parents. Giving no reason or warning makes it all the more hurtful (more power for the kiddo!). Often in these situations, the parents' relationship with their other kids is just fine, and the parents didn't treat the child who estranged any differently. I don't buy that the daughter did this solely to qualify as estranged for university funding, as many have suggested. If so, what is her message to her mom? That the relationship is worth nothing if mom doesn't fork over cash at a moment when she isn't able to? That it is purely transactional?

In the same vein - what is the message to loving parents from children who estrange giving no reason?!

These things don't just happen - what I mean is, there is always a reason, even if it's obscure, or trivial, or one not easily understood. Making a decision to go completely 'no contact' for years has to be triggered by something however vague it might seem to the parent(s).

Going no contact for years can be because of any number of things Dickens but unless the EAC says why they've decided to do so, how are the parents supposed to know? Many EAC don't say why.

These things don't just happen - what I mean is, there is always a reason, even if it's obscure, or trivial, or one not easily understood. Making a decision to go completely 'no contact' for years has to be triggered by something however vague it might seem to the parent(s).

But as Smileless says if caused by an abusive/controlling partner then that isnt going to be communicated is it. And the parents may suspect its the partner causing the problem but they wont have been told that by their estranging AC. Therefore they may well feel left inlimbo, wondering "why" even whilst suspecting/"knowing" it's the partner! Plus they have to get their heads around their AC making that "choice" even whilst knowing they may be being abused/coerced.

It's just not simplistic

Madgran77

*These things don't just happen - what I mean is, there is always a reason, even if it's obscure, or trivial, or one not easily understood. Making a decision to go completely 'no contact' for years has to be triggered by something however vague it might seem to the parent(s).*

But as Smileless says if caused by an abusive/controlling partner then that isnt going to be communicated is it. And the parents may suspect its the partner causing the problem but they wont have been told that by their estranging AC. Therefore they may well feel left inlimbo, wondering "why" even whilst suspecting/"knowing" it's the partner! Plus they have to get their heads around their AC making that "choice" even whilst knowing they may be being abused/coerced.

It's just not simplistic

It's just not simplistic

I don't think it's at all simplistic! The point I was trying to make (which I've obviously not made very well) is that the "trend" to estrange which miperrita mentioned - where adult children give no reason I thought implied that it was almost some sort of 'cult', and I was attempting to counteract that!

Of course it could be caused by any number of things as both Smileless and VioletSky pointed out.

I didn't know there were websites dedicated to the process of estranging one's parents - and it's rather depressing to know they exist.

My eldest grandson is just about to choose a university, he's quite a 'chatty' lad and texts me fairly frequently about what he's up to, etc. We talked about this very subject and he told me that some of his fellow students (by "some", I think he meant two) who had distanced themselves from their parents because of their stance on Brexit and / or immigration. I remember being very idealistic at his age and certainly had political arguments with my mother... whether I would've estranged her because of her views, I'm not sure. But he seemed to believe that it was sufficient reason.

But of course, if there's an abusive partner involved, then that's a huge complication for the parent who 'suspects' but can do little about it. Do you think this happens frequently?

There might, of course, be more obscure reasons - reasons that the parent has no knowledge of at all. And that must be very difficult to deal with.

As far as the OP's post is concerned, I've tried not to read between the lines and look at it at face value, just going by what she has told us. But, then I'm also 'reading between the lines' in trying to piece together a logical reason - as nothing has been said to indicate any kind of rift, other than the one concerning funding, and come to the conclusion that this "academically bright" young lady might well be determined to hollow out her own path to get the placement she wants at the university of her choice by estranging her parents. The OP says the daughter didn't seem to want to engage "constructively" in the discussions - maybe she was really committed to her own plans on the matter?

So, no - it's not simplistic. Not at all.

In the case of trans young adults (my son identifies as trans and I know dozens of other parents from support groups), I believe a lot of it is wanting to hide from parents and other family. Many parents in my situation find that our kids have completely rewritten their childhoods, so of course they don't want family around calling BS. The parents in my support groups are lovely people -- accomplished, compassionate, and mostly left-leaning -- not abusive or bigoted at all. It's possible that OP's situation is nothing like mine, but I thought I would throw it out there, especially when OP mentioned her daughter asking for her birth certificate.

Sometimes the reasons are given and dismissed which is sad, I've heard a few say that

Maybe some sort of defence mechanism in the brain kicks in and it cannot be heard

VioletSky

Sometimes the reasons are given and dismissed which is sad, I've heard a few say that

Maybe some sort of defence mechanism in the brain kicks in and it cannot be heard

Are you saying the ACs tell their parents the reasons they are cutting them off and that the parents can't hear them? You also said there is no trend of estranging parents. It is enough of a trend here in the US that it's become part of stand-up comedy routines. It's called "going no contact." I have read advice columns in two major newspapers in which the advice given to young adults is to cut off parents if you feel uncomfortable around them, because hey, it's your life. I think advice to cut off parents who had not been abusive or had some major psych or substance problems would have been unthinkable 15 years ago.

I said sometimes

I know this from estranged children forums where reason are justified

Not speaking for all situations, hence the sometimes

But of course, if there's an abusive partner involved, then that's a huge complication for the parent who 'suspects' but can do little about it. Do you think this happens frequently?

Dickens Firstly, I'm sorry ...my "simplistic" comment was not specifically directed at you or thinking that you thought it was simplistic. It was me musing on your comment that I quoted. But ofcourse it would read as if directed at you and I apologise. Nothing you said suggested you thought it simplistic! Oops on my part!

I can't comment on how often problems of Estrangement or low contact arise overall but it is an aspect that is referred to both on here and in other Estrangement discussions; books etc. It is easy for it to be dismissed as parents just "blaming" the partner but I personally know one particular scenario where that really is not the case.

Madgran77

*But of course, if there's an abusive partner involved, then that's a huge complication for the parent who 'suspects' but can do little about it. Do you think this happens frequently?*

Dickens Firstly, I'm sorry ...my "simplistic" comment was not specifically directed at you or thinking that you thought it was simplistic. It was me musing on your comment that I quoted. But ofcourse it would read as if directed at you and I apologise. Nothing you said suggested you thought it simplistic! Oops on my part!

I can't comment on how often problems of Estrangement or low contact arise overall but it is an aspect that is referred to both on here and in other Estrangement discussions; books etc. It is easy for it to be dismissed as parents just "blaming" the partner but I personally know one particular scenario where that really is not the case.

Absolutely no need to apologise - I really do think I did not explain what I meant at all well and in fact my post makes little sense! It reads as though I'm blaming parents for not knowing why their AC have estranged them, that there's a good reason and they jolly well ought to know it! Which isn't at all what I meant or how I feel. I was thinking, without thinking! The "Oops" moment is completely down to me, not you!

I'm just dismayed by the apparent frequency with which this happens. And I cannot imagine the distress a parent would feel suspecting their much-loved AC was being manipulated yet completely powerless to do anything about it - probably not even able to discuss it.

I understand and share your dismay Dickens.

You are completely powerless if your AC becomes involved with a coercive and manipulative partner, and it's often so subtle that you don't realise what's happening until it's too late.

It's abuse, and all abusers over time alienate their 'victim' from those close to them, so that nothing will be said that may make them question their partner's behaviour and their own.

Not wanting to be negative about their relationship and risk pushing your AC away, you do your best to keep your concerns to yourself and just between you and your own partner. You say it's OK when another excuse is made about why they can't come to see you, or you can't go and see them. Not just for their benefit but for your own, as just suspecting that their partner is gradually coming between you and your own child is unthinkable.

It's usually only with the curse of hindsight once you've been estranged, that you're able to see how they've been playing the long game and how significant those seemingly little things that have been happening, that you brushed over, actually were.

It doesn't mean it's a ruse though Avalon

The not being supported in her desires was probably the "last straw" as the debate seems to have been quite extensive.

I don't think that parents unable to provide financial support equates to not supporting their AC's desires NotSpaghetti.

If parents are unable to provide financial support, the full living expenses are awarded as a loan

I know this as do it yearly for my AC

The vast majority of students take out a student loan with parents helping out where they can.