Son has signed out

I don't understand why losing it and shouting/ swearing at someone is acceptable in any circumstance.

You could be fired from your job

It could be grounds for divorce

It could be criminally prosecuted if it caused fear and distress

It could be classed as harassment

I wouldn't want to be around anyone who shouted and swore at me for asking them reasonably not to come to my house unannounced.

Swearing in general doesn't really bother me at swearing at me while shouting is not something I would tolerate.

@MissAdventure

I absolutely get to decide to speak out against minimising abusive behaviour. Under no circumstances is there anything wrong with that. My comments were as much counter to those defending NorthernRiverDad’s behaviour as it was to his own rug-sweeping. I don’t have to defend my intent here. I know that I am giving advice less likely to fuel the rift between him and his children than anyone else trying to normalise the abusive behaviour. Telling someone who has already alienated their children with their behaviour that the behaviour wasn’t so bad is akin to instigating that rift. There is no path to reconciliation in such “advice”, and if one is giving advice that can further harm a family’s potential to heal, it is not me who needs to do some soul searching. Someone comes for advice about a rift with their child, I cannot imagine arguing about how one party should “mature” and accept objectively uncivil behaviour. Not in a million years.

If my desire to not instigate further distance between this father and his child is bothering anyone, feel free to exercise your right to ignore my posts.

Ah, sorry, the OP’s original post explaining his circumstances and asking for advice, I should have said.

IMO, the disagreements between posters are not about differing opinions on estrangement stillawipp they're about the language used when responding.

For example, telling someone that the way they responded is insane, that that's not what a proper parent does and they're not a proper parent, isn't trying to understand and help but to 'rub salt in the wound' and more often than not, comes from someone with estrangement in their own family but not someone whose been estranged, but someone who themselves has estranged or whose spouse has done so.

That's why this is often picked up as projection.

There's also the twisting of what someone has posted when replying which is bad enough or saying that things which have never been said, have been.

For example maybe User could say where she's seen anyone say they believe because it's a parent yelling at their child, that makes it somehow more acceptable rather than worse.

As I posted earlier on this thread, context is everything. He didn't 'lose it' just because his son asked him not to pop round uninvited, there's a lot more to this which anyone who took the trouble to read both of his posts, would know.

BlessedArt where has someone told NRD that what he's done wasn't so bad and who on this thread has tried to normalise abusive behaviour?

FGS let's keep our responses to what NRD and those who have responded have actually said and keep our personal agendas and imaginations out of it.

The context may explain the reasons the poster "lost it." But that doesn't excuse the behavior or make it not abusive.

Whose excused it bakestrategic?

Abusive behaviour is a pattern of actions used by someone to gain or maintain power and control over another person, often causing intimidation, manipulation or psychological harm.

Please tell me where in NRD's posts you have seen any of the above.

It’s just such a colossal waste of time arguing with people who will never change their stance - I’m sure you have better things to do with your time. If you just don’t engage then they’ll stop baiting you, surely? Life is too short….I do worry about you constantly having to fight these battles - it must be exhausting for you, especially at the moment when you are grieving a loss.

Oops, that was to Smileless2012

Smileless2012

Whose excused it bakestrategic?

Abusive behaviour is a pattern of actions used by someone to gain or maintain power and control over another person, often causing intimidation, manipulation or psychological harm.

Please tell me where in NRD's posts you have seen any of the above.

I agree that we can't know for sure if NRD is abusive in general because we don't know the frequency of his outbursts. However, he said it's "not common," so we know it wasn't a one off. The outburst he described was abusive, and we don't know if he's made any efforts to prevent further outbursts. People have minimized his behavior by saying it wasn't emotionally immature and "it happens."

I engage because I choose to stillawipp, those who feel differently of course can choose not too.

Yes User it happens. People lose their temper and depending on the degree of that loss it may or may not be abusive.

You see it as abusive behaviour but in the context of all we've been told, I don't because I respond to the information I've been given which is something you appear to be unwilling or unable to do.

Perhaps his yelling did allow him to have more control over his children while they were smaller and younger but as we don't know that was the case, it shouldn't be assumed that perhaps it was.

Smileless2012

I engage because I choose to stillawipp, those who feel differently of course can choose not too.

Yes User it happens. People lose their temper and depending on the degree of that loss it may or may not be abusive.

You see it as abusive behaviour but in the context of all we've been told, I don't because I respond to the information I've been given which is something you appear to be unwilling or unable to do.

Perhaps his yelling did allow him to have more control over his children while they were smaller and younger but as we don't know that was the case, it shouldn't be assumed that perhaps it was.

I've got to ask, and of course you're under no obligation to answer. Did you or your DH treat your ES the way NRD described? I can only imagine someone would deny obviously abusive behavior as abusive because they, or someone close to them, has behaved similarly.

Smileless2012

BlessedArt where has someone told NRD that what he's done wasn't so bad and who on this thread has tried to normalise abusive behaviour?

FGS let's keep our responses to what NRD and those who have responded have actually said and keep our personal agendas and imaginations out of it.

I can paraphrase if I like. The language used to minimise what he did was exactly what I described. It’s the same as telling him it wasn’t so bad. It was that bad.

Please stop trying to police my language. Gransnet has moderators. Unless you are secretly one, you’ve no right to attempt to control my posts. It’s incredibly controlling and inappropriate.

Voice your disagreement, but it’s incredibly disrespectful for you to insist on controlling the words of others. I have relayed this to you before.

To add, I don’t have anything to “project”, as I’ve never shouted and sworn at my children after popping up at their homes unannounced, so perhaps the projection is coming from those that have and are defensive of such actions. My intent was and remains clear: to help a parent who is alienated from their children accept that it is better to work on the anger that caused the outburst than to minimise the behaviour and remain upset at their child. If his son distanced after such an incident—the worst result possible—it’s reasonable to assume that his son is like many who class it as completely unacceptable. Objectively, it’s verbally abusive. It doesn’t matter that anyone here doesn’t agree. The son clearly does and it is he whose opinion is important in this case. It was the son, not anyone here, who was on the receiving end.

OK, I’ll leave you to it then..

User, not many people complete a check list before trying for family. We are all different, just because you tick every box you think acceptable, your children might find you insufferable we do not know. The facts are we are not perfect, thank goodness, even you, people sometimes do the wrong thing. Most parents do their best and thats what matters. Children want to feel heard and be loved and guided. Some children are challenging to put it kindly, they have issues. You and a couple of others talk down to people you don’t know. Hardly kind or judgement free behaviour.

There's a whole lot of room between perfection and not being abusive. Saying "nobody is perfect" in response to unmitigated verbal abuse is another example of minimizing the behavior in my opinion. It implies the behavior is acceptable and/or unavoidable. How we respond and learn from our mistakes is what matters. I believe User already said that.

User, “it happens” is an objective fact.

“As one would never think twice or feel bad about yelling at a car that stopped working, he yelled at his son without hesitation or remorse. Since to him, his son is more of an appliance that doles out time, attention and affection; rather than a human worthy of respect”

You don’t know any of that.

“If he actually saw his son as an individual, he wouldn't yell at him, out of frustration or otherwise.

Or at the very least, he would apologize for his behavior and try his best to change to make sure it doesn't happen again”

Do you know whether he apologised or not? Have you read NRD’s post?

Excuse me, it doesn't treat it as unavoidable.
It states a fact, as I've said.
Of course it's avoidable, any unpleasntness is avoidable, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen within family groups, couples, neighbours, even complete strangers.
Hence - it happens.

No bakestrategic, we were very close to our ES for 27 years, he and I in particular until he got married and our first GC was born.

I think your assumption that anyone disagreeing with your definition of abusive behaviour would be because they've been on the receiving end of it, or are themselves abusive is a perfect example of why we should keep our responses to what we're told.

I wasn't aware that you know NRD personally User; you seem to 'know' an awful lot about him that hasn't been disclosed in his posts, and I have no idea how some of what you've said to NRD could possibly be construed as helpful TBH.

I am not trying to police (your) language BlessedArt I merely asked where you'd seen anyone on this thread say NRD's behaviour wasn't so bad and who had normalised abusive behaviour.

If you are unable to do so because those things haven't been said that is not me trying to police your language. Claiming things have been said here that haven't been is for me incredibly controlling and inappropriate. Something which I'm sure I have relayed to you before.

I would appreciate you not accusing me of doing something that I haven't done.

NRD has said in his post that he's apologised more than once Delila and even apologised for apologising.

Of course it happens MissA but it doesn't have to be deal breaker does it.

Hopefully not.
Sometimes you can both lesrn from a flare up, and take measures so that it doesnt happen again, and that's a positive outcome.

Smileless2012

No bakestrategic, we were very close to our ES for 27 years, he and I in particular until he got married and our first GC was born.

I think your assumption that anyone disagreeing with your definition of abusive behaviour would be because they've been on the receiving end of it, or are themselves abusive is a perfect example of why we should keep our responses to what we're told.

I wasn't aware that you know NRD personally User; you seem to 'know' an awful lot about him that hasn't been disclosed in his posts, and I have no idea how some of what you've said to NRD could possibly be construed as helpful TBH.

I am not trying to police (your) language BlessedArt I merely asked where you'd seen anyone on this thread say NRD's behaviour wasn't so bad and who had normalised abusive behaviour.

If you are unable to do so because those things haven't been said that is not me trying to police your language. Claiming things have been said here that haven't been is for me incredibly controlling and inappropriate. Something which I'm sure I have relayed to you before.

I would appreciate you not accusing me of doing something that I haven't done.

I didn't ask if you were close; people can be close and the relationship still be unhealthy. I'm asking if you or your DH "lost it" and yelled and cursed at your ES over things such as normal boundaries. I'm assuming no based on your response, but it wasn't clear.

I expect it is.
I wouldn't know.

Is that a question?