How do I help my sister to stop feeling like a victim?

I don't have a strong understanding of narcissism but someone said it was different to the diagnosable disorder somewhere.

For my own understanding I am treating it the same as calling someone's behaviour jealous or controlling or selfish in that, it does describe some things that are going on and it is worth consideration. Even if it is difficult to process or accept might be the case.

My niece does not want to involve me with her side of the story. She only says she doesn't feel loved. I suppose that is a side of the story in itself. No one should feel that way. I hope she knows I love her, we have always been close but now things feel more distant.

I'm sorry that you feel there's a distance between you and your niece InRainbows, because you've previously posted about your closeness and how much time you spent together when she was younger.

From previous posts FWIW I'm sure she knows you love her. Maybe she's finding it difficult to compartmentalise her relationship with you, her aunt and your relationship with your sister, her mother.

It can be very difficult when someone you're close too continues the relationship they have with the one they've estranged, and vice versa but these relationships do continue, as they should.

I think you're right. Feeling that she's not loved by her mother may well be the story in itself .

"
- "She is ignoring the needs and feelings of others"
- "The expectation is we agree she is right with very little context."
- "Any suggestions we make on how to resolve things are met with anger and defensiveness.""

These are common symptoms of someone in the midst of a life crisis they can't handle (like divorce, bereavement, financial disaster).

Struggling with a major change doesn't mean they are narcissists, or have a personality disorder. It certainly doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

Nearly everyone of my generation has gone through at least one major life problem , which changed their behaviour for a while in ways that tested their friends and family, until they found their feet and came out the other side.

butterandjam

"
- "She is ignoring the needs and feelings of others"
- "The expectation is we agree she is right with very little context."
- "Any suggestions we make on how to resolve things are met with anger and defensiveness.""

These are common symptoms of someone in the midst of a life crisis they can't handle (like divorce, bereavement, financial disaster).

Struggling with a major change doesn't mean they are narcissists, or have a personality disorder. It certainly doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

Nearly everyone of my generation has gone through at least one major life problem , which changed their behaviour for a while in ways that tested their friends and family, until they found their feet and came out the other side.

It's been over a year and a half with no end in sight. Is that " a while" in your book, because it's not in mine.

I'll begin using the term emotionally immature instead of narcissism because people on here seem to have too rigid of a view of it or may not fully understand it.

It's very easy to act and appear mature when things are smooth sailing and going well. A true test of character is when things no longer are going their way, they start hearing no and not getting what they want. That's when emotionally immature people show their true colors.

For reference, if a healthy, emotionally mature parent ever found themselves estranged their reaction would primarily involve being mortified that their child felt the need to cut contact. If they feel disappointment, they feel disappointed in themselves for failing their child. If they feel anger, they won't dwell on it or give it fuel, rightfully realizing it's not a valid emotion in this situation. They would spend their time wondering where they went wrong and what they could have done differently, instead of trying to garner sympathy for the situation they found themselves in. A healthy, mature, responsible parent would care more about how their child must have felt to make such a difficult decision, instead of caring how difficult it is now for themselves to now be estranged.

If your niece claims she doesn't feel loved (by her mother), I'm very inclined to believe her. That your sister's reaction isn't just because of a life crisis, it's who she really is deep down.

Smileless asked earlier how I would treat a narcissist. I would follow the general advice she provided (disengage, etc.), while also viewing lying as a valid way of dealing with her. More importantly, I would stop offering suggestions and drop all hope that she will get better and grow as a person, because nothing short of a literal, actual miracle can change her.

I've yet to come across an EP who wasn't mortified when they became estranged in fact that would be an understatement, or who didn't put their parenting under a microscope to try and understand why they've been estranged PoppySeadBread.

Estrangement is referred to as a living bereavement and just like the grieving process when there's a death, there is anger. There's also shock, denial, depression and hopefully in the end, acceptance. So to say that feelings of anger from and EP isn't a valid emotion, is quite frankly ridiculous.

You'd have to made of stone not to react to how difficult it is to be estranged and doing so doesn't equate with not caring about why your child has decided to do so.

Someone with NPD frequently lies as a defensive mechanism to protect a fragile 'inner self'; maintain an image of perfection and avoid deep feelings of shame or guilt.

As lying is a narcissists modus operandi, why on earth would you choose to lie to them?

You don't need to lie to a narcissist, you need to tell the truth because it's the truth about themselves that their lies enable them to hide from.

PoppySeadBread

butterandjam

"
- "She is ignoring the needs and feelings of others"
- "The expectation is we agree she is right with very little context."
- "Any suggestions we make on how to resolve things are met with anger and defensiveness.""

These are common symptoms of someone in the midst of a life crisis they can't handle (like divorce, bereavement, financial disaster).

Struggling with a major change doesn't mean they are narcissists, or have a personality disorder. It certainly doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

Nearly everyone of my generation has gone through at least one major life problem , which changed their behaviour for a while in ways that tested their friends and family, until they found their feet and came out the other side.

It's been over a year and a half with no end in sight. Is that " a while" in your book, because it's not in mine.

Of course 18 months is only " a while". A pretty short while, in fact.

I've known people struggle with life-changing events for years , and survive to be wiser, tougher, more understanding of themselves and others.

You sound very young and inexperienced.

butterandjam
Why say that?
PoppyseadBread 's posts are helpful and informative.

Just because you feel an emotion doesn't automatically make it valid. That's what separates maturity from immaturity. It's normal to expect a child to think their emotions are valid simply because they feel them, but once your brain develops and you mature as a person, you are expected to not let your emotions run and control you.

You lie to a narcissist because the truth will never be productive. The reason for lying is what separates you from a narcissist. Narcissists lie to get what you want, you lie to a narcissist to protect yourself and your peace.

My example is more extreme because the narcissist in my life was a parent and not a sibling, so lying to her was crucial for my survival under her. I foolishly attempted the truth for many years, but it never achieved anything productive and only ended up hurting me in the end.

butterandjam

PoppySeadBread

butterandjam

"
- "She is ignoring the needs and feelings of others"
- "The expectation is we agree she is right with very little context."
- "Any suggestions we make on how to resolve things are met with anger and defensiveness.""

These are common symptoms of someone in the midst of a life crisis they can't handle (like divorce, bereavement, financial disaster).

Struggling with a major change doesn't mean they are narcissists, or have a personality disorder. It certainly doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

Nearly everyone of my generation has gone through at least one major life problem , which changed their behaviour for a while in ways that tested their friends and family, until they found their feet and came out the other side.

It's been over a year and a half with no end in sight. Is that " a while" in your book, because it's not in mine.

Of course 18 months is only " a while". A pretty short while, in fact.

I've known people struggle with life-changing events for years , and survive to be wiser, tougher, more understanding of themselves and others.

You sound very young and inexperienced.

Being estranged by your children is not something you "survive". It may feel that way, but that feeling stems from immaturity.

This isn't a tragic, unavoidable accident you survive and overcome. It's the direct consequence and result of your own actions.

How do you know being estranged by your own child isn't something you "survive"? How can you possibly know something you have no experience of?

It isn't always the direct consequence of the EP's actions and if you had a fraction of the knowledge you seem to think you have, you would know this.

You would also know that narcissists don't lie to get what you want, they lie to get what they want.

I find PoppySeadBread's posts neither helpful nor informative due to their projection, but each to their own MarieElla.

Smileless2012

Do you know the OP's sister PoppySeadBread? A very judgemental post especially when posting for the first time.

Indeed

That was a typo, I meant to say "get what they want", obviously.

In this case it appears to be the direct consequence of the EP's actions, so talking about the rare instances where it's not isn't productive. Maybe you're the one projecting, not me??

Regardless of all that, perhaps you can help her by hoping out for a walk with her. Perhaps going for coffee and buying a new lipstick.
Taking her somewhere for some social interaction.

Yes in the case of the OP's sister it does appear to be because of the way she (the sister's) behaved but you're constantly making judgemental sweeping generalisation about EP's which is for me such obvious projection that I knew you'd estranged someone, before you said so.

Smileless2012

Yes in the case of the OP's sister it does appear to be because of the way she (the sister's) behaved but you're constantly making judgemental sweeping generalisation about EP's which is for me such obvious projection that I knew you'd estranged someone, before you said so.

You say that as if estranging someone is taboo.

Really!!! Can you explain why you think what I said could come across as estranging someone being taboo?

I am estranged from my AC and DGC. At the start it is unbelievably painful and overwhelming, not seeing your AC and DGC.
Also very painful knowing that you won’t see them maybe for a long time. Please bear with your sister and meant constructively, show her compassion.

I’ve found that distracting myself with things to do, an absorbing hobby, gardening, church, socialising, whatever was or could become her thing, try and facilitate it.

The more your DS is told to stop talking about, the longer she will be stuck in the painful phase.

She needs any family members that can listen, to listen. And not punish her.

Smileless2012

I've yet to come across an EP who wasn't mortified when they became estranged in fact that would be an understatement, or who didn't put their parenting under a microscope to try and understand why they've been estranged PoppySeadBread.

Estrangement is referred to as a living bereavement and just like the grieving process when there's a death, there is anger. There's also shock, denial, depression and hopefully in the end, acceptance. So to say that feelings of anger from and EP isn't a valid emotion, is quite frankly ridiculous.

You'd have to made of stone not to react to how difficult it is to be estranged and doing so doesn't equate with not caring about why your child has decided to do so.

Someone with NPD frequently lies as a defensive mechanism to protect a fragile 'inner self'; maintain an image of perfection and avoid deep feelings of shame or guilt.

As lying is a narcissists modus operandi, why on earth would you choose to lie to them?

My sister doesn't examine what she did when her children estranged them. When they tried to resolve things before they took that step of estrangement, she railed against everything minimising what they were saying without any reflection of her own behaviour.
That doesn't mean I don't feel desperately sad for her because I would be devastated if my kids were to do this. I do understand how they feel because now they are unobtainable I get her tongue lashings. When she starts, I freeze before feeling very dejected for a few days. Recently, I played back the conversation in my head and had a lightbulb moment when I realise whatever I said, even apologies, she turned against me. When I look at the amount of people who have disappeared from her social circle when she has, of course, approached them "very nicely" about some wrong they have done her, I realise that she is displaying narcissistic traits. It doesn't make me any less sad. I am her sister and I really would prefer to have a good relationship with her but I am afraid that ship is fast looking like it has long since sailed.

Perhaps you should take a step back icanhandthemback and think about some boundaries you can put in place before you talk too or visit her again.

You mustn't allow her to tongue lash you. If she does this over the 'phone end the call; if she does this when you're visiting, leave and if she's at your house, tell her she needs to go.

Don't allow your understandable sadness for her, allow her to make you her emotional punch bag. You may never achieve the good relationship with her you desire, even if you continue to allow her to treat you in this way.

Make clear you have no issue with your niece, and you will continue communication. Also explain that you are well aware having had your sister explain her concerns on many occasions by her and that you can do nothing therefore there is nothing achieved by the constant repetition. Someone will need to take the first step if there is any resolution to the situation and it won't be you.

Please can we not have the arguments. I'm just finding it too stressful. Everyone's opinion is welcome.

Thank you, Smileless20128. My husband and I are talking about the best way forward. I don't blame her, I think she is a very damaged person from our childhood and I feel sad that she has never found the support to overcome it. However, I am finding it harder and harder to navigate to the point I can see it is going to impact my emotional wellbeing so I am well on the way to seeing your point of view!

Poppy You need to understand that your sister is a narcissist. Her ego is so fragile and frail that she can't spend even a second considering the possibility she made mistakes or was wrong, without her entire world collapsing in on itself.

What a lot of major assumptions about a mother who is clearly hurting and upset even though her behaviour as described is not exactly helpful or wise in her situation!!