Apologies

Yoga girl, I just mutter it under my breath...

Don’t know that this will be helpful but I apologise if you find it annoying.

All downloaded Oopsadaisy and ready for action

Love it Oopsadaisy

?

Morethan2, Iv seen the mumsnetters' take on apologies - Keep it simple. Admit what one did wrong. Promise you won't do it again. Follow through. "I'm sorry I did XYZ. I know it hurt you. It won't happen again." Then make sure it doesn't, etc. Some also suggest asking how one can make amends if that's fitting.

So I'm afraid they would agree with LLL's list. But they would give examples of what they saw as sincere apologies. IDKY LLL doesn't seem to be capable of doing that one thing.

I agree ReadyMeals that it's actions that count the most. But, ladies, judging by what I read on mn, apologies - and how they are worded - are important to many of the younger generation. Some of them won't even consider forgiving until they get what they see as a sincere apology. Of course, they expect the person to follow through by making sure not to repeat the offending behavior. But a lot of them seem to want the apology first, anyway.

We may disagree, but, in the end, if this is what ac and cil want, what else can we do? If we don't, then we may be at risk of being co.

Of course, I know that some won't forgive, anyway. Maybe there has been too much water under the bridge. Or perhaps, as some here have said, they just wanted to co, anyhow - so sad and cruel! But if an ac or cil is angry at us and we don't try the simple apology (no ifs, ands, or buts, etc.), we may not even have a chance to get past the episode. So IF we can say it and mean it, why not?

Like RM, though, I wouldn't say it if my heart weren't really in it - if, for example, like some here, I were accused of things I felt I didn't do. My words probably wouldn't ring true, anyhow, in that case.

Oopsadaisy, I'm not sure if you gave that list in jest or not, but most of the "reasons" on it are exactly what many mumsnetters seem to see as "excuses" - and signs of an "INsincere apology." If I understand correctly they see any apology with a "but" in it as "fake." And most of these would require a "but" (I'm sorry, BUT I was tired"... "I'm sorry, BUT you pushed my buttons" -that second one some of them would see as trying to shift the blame to the other person). I don't say I agree, but this is what the young people seem to be telling each other. (And this is why it pays to read on mn, sometimes, imo.)

The bottom part is something a lot of ac/cil would appreciate IF one chose "I will NOT do it again." But, once more, they seem to want one to mention a specific thing or things they did wrong. They don't take seriously, "I hurt you IN SOME WAY (caps mine)."

But perhaps this list, etc. wasn't meant to be taken seriously, anyhow.

Um, well let me see Starlady.....
Yep it was in jest, if I’m sorry about something I will say it and I will not include any ‘buts’, if I’m not then I won’t.

But, I’m sorry if you found the jest unamusing.

I appreciate my stamdards are in the gutter because mum is a horrorshow and MIL a pure arse, but I will throw out two pence on apologies.

I think in reality the expectations on "mum boards" (which yes I frequent!) of getting "real" apologies from parents/parents in law are completely unrealistic.

Most older parents (excuse the clumsy term) are not going to give these fulsome apologies because they do not think they are in the wrong over the incident/behaviour/comments that have caused the offence to the adult children. Most people who are playing with even half the full deck don't get up in the morning and think "How can I piss off my adult children and their partners as much as possible". So the older parents are at best reluctant to apologise for what they thought was reasonable behaviour. Telling them "you know what you did wrong" is also mince because frequently no, they believed they didn't do anything wrong so how are they supposed to know what it is?

The same applies to older parents whose strife with adult children is coming about because the AC think the older folks have unreasonable expectations. The older folks obviously do not think their expectations are unreasonable or they would not be expressing their negative feelings about them not being met.

But there is this mindset that you must get a full apology from the older folks or else you must escalate to a proper row with them involving eventually no contact. If the row was about them not finding your expressed boundaries reasonable, or not observing them sufficiently, why would no contact be the boundary they observe? Why the hell would you expect that to work? Then it doesnt work and the support boards yell at you call police, get a harassment order.... blah blah.

If you basically want to go no contact with parents because they are as mad as a box of frogs, don't pretend like the Magic Apology is going to fix that. Its a bit of fakery to help you rationalise your real feelings, which are "I can't stand these people and I never want to see them again". If those are your feelings, own it. Own it and give the old folks the real reason you are cutting them off.

But don't act like the Magic Apology will fix everything, because you are not going to get the Magic Apology. The older folks don't want to give an apology when they feel they are not in the wrong and the truth is you don't really want one either.

Can I come and sit with you Gummybears?

Gummybear you have had a dreadful time as a child but I love your writing style. And it shows up the laboured prose of love life whatsit . Like Ethel I apologise all the time but I'm not a wimp . I just try to preempt the troublesome situations that my foot in mouth mind set cause.

Prevent

I prefer to think.thst LLL was genuinely trying to be helpful , and maybe examples of 'insincere' apologies could help us to know what to avoid (although,like others I fail to see what is wrong with some of them.) As others have said ,an example of an acceptable apology is not given. However it is completely unrealistic for a mother who genuinely doesnt know what she's done 'wrong' to apologise 'correctly' by your standards. Also it is extremely one sided. Where is the apology from the DiL (for example) for inflicting such terrible hurt and heartache by withdrawing contact from dearly loved GC .
I suspect that in many cases the 'offence' has come about from a (perhaps misguided) desire to help . We had lots of advice from our parents and in laws which we may or may not have welcomed or acted on and it is hard to understand why a little well meaning advice or light disciplining of GC (I don't mean physical punishment) is taken as interference or criticism. Why not explain what has caused offence so it can be avoided in future? Even if mistakes are made again, we are all human and none of us is perfect.
I think Gummybears is right and minds have already been made up to go CO so there is no point in asking for an apology.
I just feel little compassion and flexibility would not go amiss.
The comments about the rights of adults to cut off toxic relationships (I paraphrase) are chilling when you consider that it is family who have always loved them (and still do).

Very good post Gummybear very informative from the AC point of view. The "I can't stand these people and I never want to see them again" was my s.i.l reason for the CO.

Thanks for your take on it Starlady and good to hear snippets from MN, as I don't want to go there myself.

Another good post from Polly My s.i.l just wanted us gone, the whole of my D birth family, my DD & I are amazed that my S [DD brother] is still in there, he is the only one, but that's quite usual, for the in-law doing the cutting out, to keep one family member in, so as to say, no, not all my wife's family are CO'd, I've allowed the brother to stay

You're the ones who want back into a CO relationship - not the other way around. But some attitudes here are the reasons as to why some will remain CO for eternity. You're AC don't owe you anything. You cant force someone to love or have a relationship with you. This shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

LLL, you are obviously speaking about something that you know nothing about, just offering a list of Apologies, every situation is different,stop being so sanctimonious and back off.

"just offering a list of Apologies, every situation is different"

I agree. And if you had read my initial post I was very clear about everyone's situation being different, so if this post applied to that one different case scenario, those that it did NOT apply to should have been mature enough to ignore it. But the power struggle has to continue. Parents are always right and AC always wrong right? When its the same parents who want a relationship that the AC no longer cares to have? If this post does not apply to you kindly heed to your advice.

Livelaughlaove.
Some parents on GN know that they weren’t always right. They have offered sincere apologies, I doubt very much if they started off with one of your pseudo apologies.
The reason that most are on GN is because no matter what went wrong and despite sincere apologies, nothing has worked.
These people come onto GN for advice.
Not to be told how to apologise when they have tried and failed. Maybe your next post should be entitled.
“What to do when all apologies have failed, you are at your wits end and still your family won’t speak to you.”
Then maybe more GNrs will listen and maybe take some of your hopefully well meant advice.

LLL Why are you ignoring genuine questions about
1. why saying "I think I hurt you" is on your list as inappropriate and 2. Can you give examples of an appropriate apology please?

Quote: "Parents are always right and AC always wrong, right?"

Why are you saying this? Many parents have admitted their mistakes on GN. Equally when someone says they don't know what they did wrong, it cannot be assumed that they are being disingenuous or pretending they don't know ...maybe they really don't!!! What about parents CO because an AC's partner is controlling them ....does that make the parent in the wrong for wanting to maintain a relationship? An AC being controlled by a partner is not "wanting" to CO...!!

I think what LLLreally means in this thread is that if parents are cut off by AC, no form of apology will do and further attempts will only make matters worse (if that’s possible).

I’m not sure how that information is helpful to grandparents - in most other situations in life, if there is some kind of disagreement or misunderstanding, an apology can be given and accepted.

Until I joined Gransnet, I’d never heard of AC cutting off parents. I’ve occasionally come across disputes between adult siblings, usually over money or property, which resulted in family estrangement, but that seems to be a different issue. I also knew someone who seems to have been encouraged by a ‘counselor’ to distance herself from her mother who allegedly was the source of her problems. However, after her mother died, she suffered a lot of distress as she realised that she hadn’t given her mother enough support in last days.

I wonder if any of the AC who have cut off parents will regret it in later life? Maybe not, as they seem so sure of their position which is reinforced by others like OP.

If you go onto the Mumsnet site, you will see that the vast majority of Mums have no problem with CO parents, in fact if a poster has a problem with a parent they are inundated with people urging them to ditch the interfering so and sos, I wonder if they would do the same to a well meaning friend?
I was amazed that one seeming minor problem was blown out of all proportion by the people “advising “ the OP. Not many voices advising that maybe a chat would help to sort things out.

Oopsydaisy12

“What to do when all apologies have failed, you are at your wits end and still your family won’t speak to you.”

This was already addressed in my original post: “Remember an apology though necessary isn’t always sufficient, so allow for time to heal the wounds you caused. As you allow for time to do its job, remember integrity: it’s not in your place to dictate, control or question the victims healing time, or whether or not they choose to forgive you.”

You also mention: “These people come onto GN for advice. Not to be told how to apologise when they have tried and failed. “

I gave some genuinely good advise. Fact is an early and sincere apology goes a longer way than some think it does. This isn’t about whose wrong or right. It’s about fixing broken ends as soon as the crack occurs and not waiting until the crack has turned into broken and shattered pieces. Those that read my post with an open mind, may find it helpful. The plain TRUTH in its raw form is also a form of support. There’s no need to sugar coat it. Ok let’s imagine a case scenario of a mother and their estranged AC visiting two different therapists over their estrangement. One therapist encourages the AC to set healthy boundaries and go NC for their parent is too toxic, and based on their inability to sincerely apologise is likely to repeat their hurtful cycle. The second therapist encourages the estranged parent to continue reaching out, in hopes of forgiveness. Where do you think the future to such a relationship is? This world can be a very hostile place for anyone (irrespective of estrangement cases), unknowledgeable of the power of a sincere apology, and who has a closed mind to helpful ideas.

Madgran77

LLL Why are you ignoring genuine questions about
1. why saying "I think I hurt you" is on your list as inappropriate and 2. Can you give examples of an appropriate apology please?

I’ll respond on the basis of my original post, where I initially stated: “Again on a very case specific basis, do we all really not know what we did wrong, or are we too embarrassed to admit our faults to our estranged child? Did your apology show that you’ve taking responsibility for your actions? Taken ownership?”

In response to your question: “1. why saying "I think I hurt you" is on your list as inappropriate.” - and taking the above statement into consideration, would mean that one has been informed in detail on their actions that were deemed harmful. After being told what you did, an apology in the form of "I think I hurt you,” shows a lack of ownership. This again would be different if one had not been informed of their wrong doing (which was not the case in my original post).

2. Can you give examples of an appropriate apology please?

Again I’ll reference my original post: “An apology is an acknowledgment of one’s fault. An admission of discourtesy; followed by an expression of regret or remorse. An apology acknowledges the harm your actions caused. Irrespective of whether or not you think they were harmful. An apology is sincere. “

3. “What about parents CO because an AC's partner is controlling them ....does that make the parent in the wrong for wanting to maintain a relationship?” Is this an assumption based analysis? Has the parent "maybe" considered the fact that maybe their own AC may share the same NC views as their spouse, but chooses not to confront them about it? Did the parent ever offend their AC spouse and as a result both spouse and AC immediately went NC?