OVER INDULGENT PARENTS

You can only help if your DIL and DS ask for your advice or help.

I am in exactly the same position myself. I realise that it is fashionable to be extremely indulgent towards small children today. My grandson is likewise 4 and has a tantrum every time his mother phones me. We manage 3-4 minutes chat before she rushes off to console him.

I feel she is laying up trouble for herself by spoiling the boy rotten and dread the brutal awaking the little one will have when he goes to school and is forced to realise that the whole world is not going to dance attendance on him.

I bite my tongue, as my advice has not been asked for, and I know my different way of seeing things will cause offence if I voice my opinions.

Sooner or later, your son and daughter-in-law will get tired of running themselves ragged and wonder what has gone wrong. Perhaps you can pick up the pieces when that happens. Right now do nothing.

I hate that term 'butt out' and I think the OP has gone.

Sadly nothing my eldest grandaughter is a fully fledged brat, her parents never chastized her when she was naughty it was all cute and funny, well it isnt anymore, she rules the roots, ruined her 13th birthday this month because she didnt want one of her cousins there, her cake got dropped and smashed all over the floor , birthday was cancelled and her mum ( my Dd) apologised to her after it all . Ive spent years telling her she needs boundaries and rules to no avail the younger two are not as bad but have their moments . Itll be wasted words x

It’s always been about the middle ground I was never a strict disciplinarian but I did have boundaries and mine have all grown up in turn to be good parents although they have three totally different ways My eldest has brought hers up very similar to my way maybe a fraction stricter than me but not over the top, my daughter in law has definitely cosseted more and a bit over protective and not allowing the to explore life for themselves so much my youngest has given the most freedom and independence right from them being small and set much less boundaries But they have all grown up good useful people The eldest three have good jobs number 4 is in uni and 5, and 6, in 6 th form, and number 7 in high school and doing well
I never smacked any of my children and my grand kids have never been smacked it feels really alien to me to smack a child I was never smacked so that’s going back to the 40 s in my family
Unless it’s very extreme parenting it all pans out in the end

Unfortunately, Loislovesstewie, we teachers can see all too well when children have been allowed to have an over inflated sense of their own importance. Those are the children who disrupt whole lessons, making the rest of the students sit, bored, waiting for the brat's behaviour to be dealt with.

If only parents would realise, over indulging their children will make their lives 10 times harder once they get to school, and realise the whole world does NOT think the sun shines out of their rear end.

GagaJo, I agree with you. The fashions in parenting styles seem to swing from being incredibly strict to being so over indulgent as to be totally ineffectual. As I said, mine weren't smacked but I did let them know that only one of us was in charge;me! and if I said no, then no amount of whining would change things.

Your children and their respective partners are grown up. This means they are old enough to make decisions, whether good or bad in your eyes. It also means they learn the hard way too. None of us ever truly learns from somebody else's mistakes!
All I can suggest is you say nothing, if you still want to be in their lives, but are there to support them along the way. Like taking the children out on your own. This way the children get to see not everybody operates in the same way!

I think everyone has to bring up their children in the way they see fit which may not be your way. I try to bite my tongue when the urge to give advice to my DD or SIL comes to the fore. Child rearing advice has changed over the last 30 years. Best wait to be asked and definitely no book should be offered. For every so called parenting guru advising a particular way of bringing up children there is another saying the opposite. Your GC will soon learn life does not revolve around them no matter what their parents do.

It's a curious phenomenon that when children are indulged, it brings out the worst in their natures. You would think spoiled children would be the happiest in the world, but they are not.

I’ve seen the same with elderly people. My grandmother was overly indulged because everybody was afraid of her throwing a fit. She was the most miserable person I knew. I have very few good memories of her.

This is a very difficult topic. Probably we should try to get our children & grandchildren to understand that they should not behave in ways that discomfort others: family, friends or strangers. It's to do with self control. My personal experience though is that through adopting this stance people have treated me like a doormat, because I am so shocked by their behaviour that I don't respond. I'm sorry for the teachers who have to deal with these selfish spoilt children: but it's not the fault of the children of course, it's learnt behaviour. I only hope they have an epiphany in their adult years and realise that kindness to others is everything.

Not a grandparent but wanted to offer an explanation of why I parent in this exhausting way.

I remember my form mistress telling me when I was about eleven “Don’t ever put yourself down. The world is full of people eager to do that for you”. Over the years I have realised how right she was.

My children will grow up in a world where no one gives a fig about them. At work they will be readily replaceable, no matter how skilled or professional they become. They will be performance managed to an inch of their lives. In school and university, they will only be a source of income and a set of grades to be managed. Their romantic prospects will be decided in less than three seconds by some individual swiping on a phone according to a sorting algorithm that declares them too short, too fat, too educated, or whatever else some horrible ‘seduction success’ website has determined isn’t desirable in a partner.

The only person in the world that I can know will always love them, always appreciate them for exactly who they are, always accept whoever they grow up into, is me.

I want to be that safe haven in a world that even now, is crueller than even I grew up in.

The whole world is already willing and eager to tell my children that they aren’t special and they don’t matter. I won’t join in with that. To me, they are special, to me they are irreplaceable.

I was raised by a mother to whom I didn’t matter a shit and that is damage that’s not undone, despite how hard I’ve worked on it.

I don’t raise them with “no boundaries” or “endless negotiations”, but the thing I do have to give them that no one else can is my love and attention whilst they are so small. For this tiny window in their lives, they can be and are the centre of someone’s world. I can only hope that this is enough to protect them from a lifetime of a world battering their self esteem.

I am trying to vaccinate them against other people’s cruelty. I don’t know if that will work. All I know is that being raised with cruelty made me and many others defenceless against other cruelties as we grew older.

I worry constantly that I am doing the wrong thing. I can’t know until they are grown if this was the wrong thing to do. But this is my best hope and I work as hard at it as I can.

muffinthemoo

Exactly what I said, you cannot SPOIL or RUIN a child with love and attention.

Please do not interfere, suggest a book that matches your parenting style or outcome you wish to see, talk to your son or dil ,etc.
They know where you are if they need your advice.

Do you remember how difficult the ages of 2 and 4 were? Still demanding the parents full attention, following their parents everywhere- bathroom break alone is a fantasy-, etc?

The terrible twos must be in full swing and the tantrums just happen no matter what you do or don't do.

The 4 year old is in the phase of pushing any rules and boundaries he can. No rules!

Many parents now feel that children are people and need to understand why they are asked to do something, why they are punished, etc., so kids understand why things happen.
I feel you do not agree with this.
I am afraid your son and dil do not follow your same parenting style.

The school will raise a red flag and talk to the parents if the behaviour of their kids needs to change.

I grew up in the generation of " children are not seen or heard" and it was awful.

Exactly what I said, you cannot SPOIL or RUIN a child with love and attention.
I think you are mixing up love and attention with boundaries and guidelines. The two go together, and every child deserves both. If you indulge their every demand, no matter how small, it does them no favours. There may be times when their demand is unreasonable or ridiculous and if you constantly give in then even very young children will soon realise they are in control and that they can have whatever they want and do whatever they want.

Summerlove makes sense.

It's interesting reading some of the posts. It seems that parents who want to do everything for their children to make them happy end up by doing the reverse. Children who are spoilt as adults may have difficulty in finding their way around a world that doesn't run as they expect. Teaching children respect, independence and resilience is really a duty of parents.

This is a topic that is discussed endlessly with my friends who are also grandparents today. We are often dismayed at the lack of boundaries our kids (the parents) provide to their kids. We help each other to remember the mantra which is "not our kids, not our problem, not our responsibility".
It's very hard, especially when we are quite hands on as GPs but we need to constantly remind ourselves that it's not our business.
I read a lovely book called "Nanaville" by one of my favorite authors, Anna Quindlen. It's about her experiences as a recent grandmother. One thing really stood out for me when she shared a story about offering unsolicited advice / criticism to her son and DIL about her grandson's education.
A friend she turned to asked her the magic words, "Did they ask you?" - I really took this to heart and have since tried to offer advice, help etc. much less. I wait for them to come to me with requests.
Works a treat!
And meanwhile we get on with our own lives!
Good luck

I agree with what Chestnut has said

Along with love, attention and giving a child a sense of security, certain boundaries also need to be instilled to enable them to take a fulfilling place in society.
The world out there is not prepared to indulge their every whim or to tolerate their tantrums if they do not get their own way.

Responsible parenting should set them on the path to becoming confident but caring individuals.

Although sometimes you can only watch, grit your teeth and say nothing even if asked for advice.

This seems to be the preferred method these days. I feel sorry and frustrated for you. I also find some of the comments towards you quite harsh. nobody wants their grandchildren to be disliked at school. there used to be a time where grandparents were a source of advice but now we are advised to shut up all the time. my parents turned to my grandparents a lot and saw it as wisdom not interference

I wouldn’t bother replying if I were you. OP is obviously not interested as she has not returned to this thread.

As happens so often, Doodle (sigh)

Yup. Half term holiday games again ?

and she started off by shouting at us, in the title, which is a bit impolite anyway.

as to upbringing, I don't see why gentleness and guidance are opposites. both are needed and go together.
dr Miriam Stoppard said you can gently teach even a pre-verbal child, when he pulls the cat's tail, you gently take his hand and say ouch! that hurts cat, then stroke the cat with his hand in yours saying soothingly, cat likes that, that's nice.
it's a matter of re-direction.
it seems to me some young people are so selfish because it has literally never occurred to them that anything else is possible. it's never been shewn to them. maybe parents too busy, working. and I guess it's the default mode, to be selfish, for survival.
but then they are missing out on the glorious feeling of going beyond oneself, of giving freely, simply to help or please another. it can be learnt. and we learn most from those we love or admire. we want to emulate them.

What is the pay off for indulging in a half term holiday game?

It's beyond weird.