ADHD, SEN and other problems in children

I have an adult grandchild with an ASD diagnosis, a younger one with dyslexia and our youngest is ADHD. As well as these diagnosis, each has their own unique personality.
Fortunately schools and parents meet their individual needs as well as possible. Yes, they’re expected to behave within the usual expectations.
As others have said, before inclusion, the majority of SEND children weren’t in mainstream. If they were they were often harshly treated and not given opportunities

I think it was the sunflower incident that set me off. I remember when my own children were little, the little girl next door would call round and all three would play together, 'House' was a favourite game and they'd be Mummy and Daddy and Baby and have tea parties with pretend cups of tea, and pretend bedtime. I'd watch through the kitchen window, but my daughter and visiting Mum supervise by playing 'with' them and drinking tea or coffee outside with the children.
This visiting child, another little girl, seems boisterous and destructive and is never criticised or corrected. I don't know how they missed the destruction of the sunflowers but it seems the first they knew was DGD bursting into floods and telling the other girl she hated her.
The other child was taken home but was not chastised or even made to apologise.
It set me off thinking about these labels and that without this child's 'label' she'd have learned to respect other people's treasures. As it is, she will continue to destroy other people's belongings without learning that its not the way to behave.
I sound old fashioned and unsympathetic, but having an ADHD diagnosis meant she missed a valuable lesson.
(Yes, I see I AM old fashioned.. Sigh!)

Without the label she'd have learned what her parents bothered to teach her. Nothing magical about it.

Four is young to be diagnosed with ADHD. I would think that because of her boisterous and destructive behaviour a label was sought, when simple but regular correction would have guided her.
School will not tolerate this behaviour but will have the strategies and authority to enable her to develop self-control. It depends on how she responds to them and how she settles in school before her diagnosis is confirmed.

With the possible exception of autism no neurodivergent problem is on excuse for bad behaviour. We now have four generations of neurodivergent people in our family but bad behaviour whether rudeness, destructiveness or bad manners has never been accepted

Fartooold

This is so wrong and unacceptable I have 3 with Down Syndrome now adults and they have been brought up to be kind, honest and respectful and are welcomed everywhere. It was not hard we had to be consistent!
I am afraid SEN and autism etc are an excuse for bad behaviour. Sorry if I sound harsh.

What a terrible view on things. None of us should judge other people's children, unless we are an expert in the field.

You can't actually believe that.

Galaxy

You can't actually believe that.

Galaxy, I was referring to Fartooold's quote above that SEN and autism are an excuse for bad behaviour, and yes I do believe that complex needs should be judged by an expert not a layman. That's my opinion.

I think young mums are too busy on their phones, tbh. I have watched them, no interaction with the child. So they don’t know how to behave.

I think young mums are too busy on their phones, tbh. I have watched them, no interaction with the child. So they don’t know how to behave
That’s judgemental and over simplifying Mt61 some parents aren’t attentive , many are , just as always in life there has always been some good parenting and some poor parenting

I would ask again Exdancer why is this little girl allowed to play with your ,grandaughter, why is she allowed in the garden and house Your daughter only has to say no when they arrive on the doorstep or not answer the door
Would I have allowed a child over to play who destroyed my garden and child’s toys and terrified my child, no of course not
It’s all up to your daughter

I am appalled by the use of the blanket phrase "SEN children" by some posters.
Children with Special Educational Needs include the neurodivergent, the blind and partially sighted, the Deaf and hard of hearing, those with physical and/or learning disabilities, children with cerebral palsy, children who are seriously or terminally ill and many other conditions that impair the ability to learn.
The language used does matter.

Mamie
SEN is the old term which refers to children with special educational needs though not necessarily with disabilities. SEND is
Special Educational Needs and Disabilities includes children who have disabilities.

Special educational needs and disabilities (SEND) can affect a child or young person’s ability to learn. They can affect their:

behaviour or ability to socialise, for example they struggle to make friends

reading and writing, for example because they have dyslexia

ability to understand things
concentration levels, for example because they have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)

physical ability including blindness and deafness, cerebral palsy etc which hampers a child’s ability to learn, but does not necessarily mean they have any of the lettered issues.

The SEND Code of Practice identifies four broad areas of need and support:

Communication and interaction

Cognition and learning

Social, emotional and mental health

Sensory and/or physical needs

www.gov.uk/children-with-special-educational-needs

None of these mean that children should not be taught, or helped to understand that hurting others is wrong if you want the best life for your child, whatever their SEN or D.

“My daughter's running out of excuses to fob her off.”…………..then your daughter needs to be the responsible adult and say ‘No’. She doesn’t have to give excuses, she doesn’t have to explain……..she simply needs to protect her own child and let the neighbour look after her own child as she seems to think that is everyone else’s responsibility bar hers.
I am not condemning the child with SEN but she is her mother’s responsibility, not your DD’s.
Tell your daughter to communicate with the child’s parents.

I totally agree with Astitchintime why does your daughter need excuses she needs to say that the child can’t come in and play simple as that
ADHD is not a reason for bad behaviour …bad parenting is

Children may be identified at school by age six as struggling to sit, focus, not constantly move about but, in our area they won’t be formally assessed as adhd until age 7
Children do move and fidget, don’t always focus on tasks that don’t interest them, Four year olds who behave as described by the OP really don’t benefit from their bad behaviour being dismissed as the result of adhd

I think there's over diagnosis, jobs for someone, you have a label that's the rest of your life sorted. I don't know a family that hasn't had someone diagnosed.

Mollygo

Mamie
SEN is the old term which refers to children with special educational needs though not necessarily with disabilities. SEND is
Special Educational Needs and Disabilities includes children who have disabilities.

Special educational needs and disabilities (SEND) can affect a child or young person’s ability to learn. They can affect their:

behaviour or ability to socialise, for example they struggle to make friends

reading and writing, for example because they have dyslexia

ability to understand things
concentration levels, for example because they have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)

physical ability including blindness and deafness, cerebral palsy etc which hampers a child’s ability to learn, but does not necessarily mean they have any of the lettered issues.

The SEND Code of Practice identifies four broad areas of need and support:

Communication and interaction

Cognition and learning

Social, emotional and mental health

Sensory and/or physical needs

www.gov.uk/children-with-special-educational-needs

None of these mean that children should not be taught, or helped to understand that hurting others is wrong if you want the best life for your child, whatever their SEN or D.

Yes I am aware of the change Mollygo. As far as I am concerned SEND is now the title for the service, but all the children involved have a special educational need for modification of their process of learning, whatever their particular condition or disability. Special Educational Needs always included children with physical disabilities when I worked across the whole range of conditions from children with specific learning difficulties to those with profound and multiple disabilities.
I am sure you will agree that it would wrong to refer to "SEND children" as one group.

Allsorts

I think there's over diagnosis, jobs for someone, you have a label that's the rest of your life sorted. I don't know a family that hasn't had someone diagnosed.

In what way does a label sort the rest of your life?
I remember my eight year old grandson’s label as helping school and his family to understand some of his behaviours more clearly. This helped him in school particularly. It hasn’t sorted his social anxiety or ensure his high intelligence helped him into a career structure z

On here possibly, Mamie, but the addition of the final D was intended to include all children who had barriers to learning whether neurological or physical.
We used to use EBD or now, SEMH. I’m almost certain the alphabet soup will increase with the continuing emergence of diagnoses.,

If some members want to learn more Re the increase in neurodiversity there is a program on Radio 4 at 11.45.

Yes I agree about the alphabet soup! The point I was making really, was that saying "SEN(D) children" in that order defines them with their condition / disability first. For example, people used to say Down's children rather than children with with Down's syndrome.
I am still a bit puzzled by the rationale for adding the D though. As specialist advisers working within SEN provision in our LA, we always worked with children with cerebral palsy, muscular dystrophy, sight, speech, and hearing loss and lots of neurological conditions (as well as dyslexia, dyspraxia) etc.

Autism and ADHD are neurodevelopmental disorders.
I have 2 SEND grandchildren. My 16 year old grandson who is autistic and his cousin, my 12 year old granddaughter with dyslexia and autism, have been brought up in the same way as their neurotypical siblings. They know right from wrong, both have lovely manners and know how to behave in any setting, both inside and outside the home.
Your DD needs to keep the door shut to her neighbour. Having ADHD is not a 'Get out of Jail' card for bad behaviour. Her new neighbour would not be having any more cuppas or free child care if I lived next door.
In the 1950's children were deemed 'backward'. There have always been around.

I just don't understand how a 4 year old has been diagnosed with adhd, it doesn't fit with any practice that I am aware of. Is this an older child perhaps?

Sarnia

Autism and ADHD are neurodevelopmental disorders.
I have 2 SEND grandchildren. My 16 year old grandson who is autistic and his cousin, my 12 year old granddaughter with dyslexia and autism, have been brought up in the same way as their neurotypical siblings. They know right from wrong, both have lovely manners and know how to behave in any setting, both inside and outside the home.
Your DD needs to keep the door shut to her neighbour. Having ADHD is not a 'Get out of Jail' card for bad behaviour. Her new neighbour would not be having any more cuppas or free child care if I lived next door.
In the 1950's children were deemed 'backward'. There have always been around.

I agree.

I have ADD, though there was no label in the 50's my parents undersood. I was brought up the same way as all my sisters. I was reminded to be still and concentrate, lovely manners were expected and taught.

OP's daughter's consider focusing on the mum, not the child.

We only have the mother's word that this child has ADHD, and I certainly know very little about these labels. In this case I think the blame lies with the parents who seem to be too lazy or feckless to discipline the little girl.
As for my daughter, the people saying she should grow a stronger backbone and refuse to have the girl in her garden are correct. I hate grandmothers who interfere, but I think its time I did just that.
Time for giving DD a 'good talking to' I think.