It's back: Morning Depression feeling...and worse

Thanks, Brendawymms. I do feel at my worst in the mornings but it can persist much of the day at times. And I am on an antidepressant which was helping a little (though it certainly wasn't a 'happy pill' by any means!). I had begun to come off them as the ones I take have a side effect of substantial weight gain, and I'm already in the obese category and struggle with it. When I got to the lowest dose, I was feeling worse emotionally and realised it was stupid to come off them shortly before going away on holiday, so I decided to up the dose again (after emailing my psychiatrist). This is now what's happening, but it will take a while for the increased dose to have full effect again. So now I have to wait and ride the storm. Once we return from holiday (which I am dreading as I don't want to spoil it for DH - I know, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy) - I can't see my psych till mid June to discuss whether I can appeal the decision to close the door on my treatment or take a deep breath and find a therapist for myself privately somehow.
I guess I've had both: the life events and the 'depression from inside' - it's pretty darned persistent, though, and particularly the last 8/9 years. The split with my ex-friend, (with whom I had a small business) in 2008, didn't help, though I've tried really hard to move on and get out to meet other people and do different things.
I'm hoping I will feel better for when we go away in just over a week's time, but possibly not.

I have read all of this posting, and dont wish to sound trite, but I truly feel for you and for everyone suffering with mental illness, the silent epidemic as they call it. I recognise many of your symptoms in myself, but not so severe, and my son is showing signs of depression which worries me in those awful early hours of the morning when I wake up. I do however, think that many of us have the same thoughts as you do, resentment, ill will towards others etc., but the difference is that you are brave enough to admit to having these feelings. I have read many reports that long walks outside in the fresh air have helped other people to deal with these terrible feelings, Stephen Fry for one. I dont wish to offend by suggesting something simplistic, but you may find that it helps to distract you, and exercise such as walking raises the body's natural endorphins which make us feel better. My son is at University and the team there have been very good, and suggested gym attendance as part of his treatment. Predictably, it took him some time to do it, but he admits that he feels heaps better, enjoys the feeling of achievement and sleeps far better.

I'm probably being over-simplistic here, but it seems that your labours and births were incredibly traumatic and then to have a baby with Goltz must have been an added issue. Is it possible that you needed to 'grieve' for the births and outcomes that you had naturally expected, but didn't have? They've obviously had a massive impact on you and, regardless of how much you love your DDs, their arrival wasn't what you had hoped for. I hope I haven't sounded tactless, but events that we think we've coped with can have such a profound effect for such a long time.

Minimouse, you're so right that I didn't have the chance to grieve for my 'perfect' baby. DD2's birth was horrendous - at least the aftermath was; it was an elective c-section because she was an oblique lie AND feet first (typical!) and the young doctor attending went white when he saw her and clearly was out of his depth in dealing with it. In fact I felt for him - he was shaking as he brought her to show us, asked DH to sit down (DH had noticed nothing at that stage) and then told us there were several problems and abnormalities. We listened in a haze of disbelief; it felt as if it was happening to someone else. All I could say was, 'What did I do?' because I thought it was my fault. The theatre sister's response was, 'Oh, we've got a great plastic surgeon - you should see the messes he's had to clear up!' and that was the start of our journey...nobody knew what it was, doctors came to see her but nobody sat down with me and held my hand and let me cry or asked me how I was feeling. I didn't think I was allowed to grieve. We were so frightened; didn't know whether she'd be mentally affected, what the future held, what she would be able to do...our 'normal' life with our little family felt shattered to smithereens then. I was in hospital with her for nearly 4 weeks - all we wanted was to be reunited with DD1 and be a family, and DH found it incredibly difficult to bond with DD2 for a while because he just saw her when he visited us in hospital. I didn't want to go home without DD2 though because I knew she needed me, and I wanted to breastfeed her (which proved incredibly difficult but we did it in the end). Once home, things weren't much better - multiple hospital visits to try and sort the problems out, and nobody offering emotional support for our little family. Well, nothing unusual there, I guess!
I'd better stop as I could go on and on about the lack of support from the medics and the ignorant comments they often made....then there was our local curate, who, seeing DD2 for the first time when I brought her to the toddler group because I helped with the music there, quipped, 'What shall we do with this little one, then? Rub her out and start again?'
That hurt beyond words - as did many other similar, but I had to get on with it and work at giving her the very best life possible and make sure she always knew she was very dearly loved, as much as her sister.

So no....guess it still feels raw, after thirty years. How pathetic that must sound, and I know there are plenty of mothers who go through far, far more difficult births and whose babies suffer more than we did. We survived as a family, but it's left its mark on me, though I can't say it's the cause of my mental health problems now because I've never felt 'ok' about myself, not really.
You weren't tactless at all: I just hope that mothers whose babies are born with problems are treated with far more compassion and empathy than I was, and that things have improved, but I suspect this is far from the case.
GillT57- I'm not exactly active, but I do try to get out into nature as much as possible, and gardening helps - at the time - though it doesn't stop the horrible feelings or the ensuing guilt. How old is your son, and does he talk to you about how he's feeling? I know so well that 'early hours' anxiety about one's child.....somehow, the wee small hours magnify everything, don't they? If he's communicating his feelings to someone - whether it's to a counsellor, friend or to you - that is a positive sign. I hope his university are keeping an eye on him. Are you able to communicate with his personal tutor if you are worried? That can be tricky because students are regarded more as adults, so confidentiality can be an issue, but if they know that depression is flagged up, then hopefully that awareness will help somewhat and reassure you too.
I hope he continues to improve - it sounds very positive that he's taking steps to help himself

Oh Rowan what an ordeal you had and what mind-numbingly crass comments you received from people from whom you would (and should) have expected so much more.

My Mother went through a different experience - a stillbirth - and the Ward Sister suggested that my mother should write down everything that had happened and how she felt etc because putting it down on paper might provide a 'release' for her emotions. It's different from speaking about it, or probably even from typing it, and she did find it helped, although the pain never went away completely of course and my Mother still talked about her right up until she died. So you're definitely not alone in having these overwhelming thoughts and feelings.

Don't forget that you've also had to cope with all the stresses, both physical and mental, of dealing with a baby/child that needed surgery etc, as well as bringing up DD1. It all takes its toll on you.

I don't have a magic solution, I only wish I did, but perhaps 'talking' on GN can provide an outlet for you. There are many well-informed and wise people on here, so I hope you find some solace.

I think you should show your MIL your last post and explain to her that it makes you remember all too vividly your own experience hearing how other births have gone. She would then surely have the delicacy to keep off the subject when you are around. She doesn't necessarily know how you feel . She may think that it is all in the past and over and done with whereas it is still as fresh and real to you as the day it happened .She may also feel that you would be delighted for another woman to have a successful and joyous pregnancy. Just tell her very clearly that it is too painful for you. She may well be stunned that all she has said has had this effect on you.

Stansgran, that's an excellent idea. I'm just not sure I'd have the courage to tell her - I've got used to trying to hide how I feel in front of her andnI suppose I fear ridicule and judgment (I remember once, when we were driving her back from Norwich where we'd been visiting DD1 for the weekend. I am emotional, and I hate saying goodbye to DD1 because it's often ages till we see her again. So, for a while afterwards, I cry on the journey home, and then after a while I am fine again. On this occasion MIL was really scathing, wanted to know why I was crying and sneered, pointing out that DD1 only lives in Norwich, ' Well, think how I feel then with Karen (her elder daughter) living in Canada!' It made me feel shame and also anger - what right did she have to tell me what emotions I was or wastn't allowed to feel?
Unfortunately I wasn't assertive or far-thinking enough to point out to her that we are all allowed to feel as we feel and I just took it, seething inside with rage I couldn't express. But I am loth to bring her with us again to visitn DD1!
However, your suggestion is certainly something I can build up to saying at some stage. I'd just fear her reaction to it as she can be very judgmental.

Rowan l have been off site for a while due to hols. I understand where you are coming from. I think the mental health system in the UK sucks because of severe lack of funding which is why only the most desperate cases get treatment.

DDS has also been fobbed off and it is a constant worry for me that her severe anxiety issues and depression are only treated by repeat prescriptions from her GP and private therapy which she pays for herself. She has also lost friends and an important relationship due to her feelings of jealousy & inadequacy. I try 2 help as much as poss just as your DH does for you. It is heartbreaking.

I hope you find a good therapist . it may take a while as the first one may not help but it will be worth the money to improve your way of life and feelings.

[Flowers]

Rowantree May I suggest an alternative strategy? You would need to pull all your acting abilities into play, but I think you could do it

When you visit your m-I-l, be the one to first mention the new baby (put on a brave smile - you can do it!). Actually be the one to instigate the Skype call. Be the one to go overboard about how beautiful the baby is. Outdo the lot of them with your cooing and ah-ing. Say how glad you are that the mum had such a good Labour. Don't mention your own labour, or your own baby at all. This strategy could take the wind completely out of your m I . l' s sails. And you will feel good. Because you will have won. You will be the mature, sensible kind one. Which she is not.

Devious perhaps, but needs must........

Excellent idea and post jingle !

Go for it Rowantree

Yes if can do it Rowantree I agree with Jingle and Gilly

if you can do it !

I like it jingle I agree rowantree just prentend your an actress then change the subject. You won't feel any worse than you would normally. Be brave. Think of us all urging you on.

Hi Rowan and I am sorry to hear about your problems. I was wondering could I ask you if you are on any other medication as well as the low dose of Mirtazapine? Mirtazapine is usually given at night to help anyone who is having problems with sleeping and is not "usually" a drug that causes the side effect of weight gain. Hence why I was wondering if you were on any other meds that may cause that problem. Depression itself is also sometimes a cause of weight gain and the "nibble" problem that you mention. As you have said when you have tried and been referred for several lines of treatment it appears you have been left to struggle on your own and as has also been said, mental health or illness is at the bottom of the pile for the "cash". It seems a shame as your treatment with Mirtazapine appeared to be working that you have had to come off it. I certainly agree that a CPN would definitely be a wise move. Please do not lose hope, there will be a way through all of this and do not think you are a failure or a bad person, these issues are not easy to deal with and the fact you are still fighting through it shows how strong you are. You really do need to discuss this with your Psychiatrist or someone else trained in dealing with your particular illness.
I send you my very best wishes and lots of hugs.

Thank you Rowan for your kind concern regarding my son, yes it is the early hours of the morning when I worry, and he has admitted to depression which is the first stage I suppose. his Uni have been very good, but he is legally an adult and they cannot discuss anything with me. I have read your comments regarding your MiL and her insensitivity and would ask ' why are you more concerned about her feelings rather than your own'? Maybe you could contact the relative who is having the child, congratulate her on your own behalf, send her a gift, and just dont take part in this dreadful communal skype where everyone has to play a part to suit your MiL?

Hello all - a quick update.
I did go with DH to visit MIL, but we took her out for the day to visit Syon House so that was a good distraction. When we got back to MIL's house for dinner, not much was said about the new baby apart from the fact that the new mother had discharged herself from hospital early and was doing very well (to my shame I didn't want to hear that - my own daughter was left to struggle by herself after her c-section, after she'd been promised good care because of her disability and mental health problems. She got nothing at all, and after a hellish night, also discharged herself, and her lovely partner looked after them all).
So in fact there was no skyping - apparently MIL's daughter had returned home and was no longer with the new mum and baby so the opportunity wasnt there for skyping or anything, but DH showed MIL how to access photos on her computer while I was knitting in another room and the fact that I wasn't looking at the photos too wasn't an issue - thank goodness!

We have contacted DH's sister to arrange sending money as a present for her daughter and the new baby, and I will have to get used to updates from MIL who speaks regularly to her daughter in Canada. Probably there won't be a mass Skype unless there's a big family get-together, which hopefully won't be for quite a while.

In answer to Positivepam - my psychiatrist told me that Mirtazapine definitely has side-effects of weight gain in some people and I seem to be one of them. Interesting that you say it's prescribed for sleeping problems - insomnia has been a big issue since being on the drug - I used to sleep pretty well despite my anxiety and depression problems, but no longer, and I don't like taking sleeping pills because I don't want to become addicted to them.
Once we're home from holiday and I next see my psychiatrist I will ask about a CPN and further therapy options - if I can appeal the decision to refuse further treatment.
Jingle. gilly and lucy - thanks for your suggestions, but even if the skype had taken place I don't think I could have done any of that - I'm just not in the frame of mind where I could carry it off, and I'm thankful that it didn't happen anyway, though I would never have mentioned my experiences anyway as I am too proud (if that's the right word) and also too ashamed to admit to my feelings, so I'd have hidden them as best I could (as I always try to do) but not acted in the way you suggested because that would be rather out of character for me!

Lucy - it's indeed shameful that your DD has been treated in this way and just been issued with repeat prescriptions which get her nowhere. She really needs a proper assessment. Is there any way you could make an appointment to see the GP and voice your concerns? I can see it's a risk because there's the usual patient confidentiality issue, but mental health is a very difficult area and arguably you have nothing to lose by putting the case for referring her to a psychiatrist for a proper diagnosis and hopefully some appropriate therapy, on the grounds that their care plan simply isn't working (and everyone has the right to a care plan). I feel for you - I've been where you are, with my DD2 (so I've been on both sides of the fence, so to speak!) and I know only too well the frustration, trying to get the medics to understand what is needed and move forwards. You feel as if you are getting nowhere.
It's been suggested to me that I complain to PALS (Patient Advice and Lisason Service) which I will definitely look into, and you could also approach them in your area and see what they suggest as a way forward for your daughter. She - and you - deserve better than this.

Rowan i am seeing my GP this week specifically to ask what can be done. As you say I do feel as if I am getting nowhere but that is partly because of DD2's attitude that nothing can be done and she has her own therapist anyway.

It is a second assessment that DD2 needs as things have not improved dramatically for her in the past 18 months and with specific relationship problems within the family as well as her personal ones externally I grow ever more worried for her future. There is a huge bust up on the horizon between her and DD1 which won't help matters.

I just feel (mother's intuition as well as watching her behaviour) that the therapist can't do it all and that other meds may be needed to help control the behaviour as well as talking/behaviour therapies.

Here in France my partner (who is bi-polar as well as suffering from anxiety and depression - don't I just pick them!) sees a psychiatrist on a regular basis who not only checks his meds efficacy but also acts as therapist. It works, is free and is ongoing! Why we can't have this in the UK is nothing short of a crime :-(

Meanwhile my own depression for no specific reason has worsened over the past week (I am so sick of this illness) and I know that talking therapy won't help as it has in the past where a specific issue that has caused the depression has been addressed, with some success.

Thanks for your advice. Much appreciated. Glad that things didn't proceed as you anticipated with MiL yesterday. Am thinking of you too as you battle with your 'stuff'.

Lucy - mother's intuition should always be taken seriously IMO.
My daughter didn't really start to improve till she started Dialectical Behavioural Therapy. Since then her relationship with her elder sister has improved a great deal, though it did take time, and also with us, though she still displays paranoia at times. These days she recognises it, and apologises afterwards if she's overreacted, and we are learning to handle it better too. There was a time when we didn't think she would EVER improve - and felt very bleak about her future - she has a disability too, and we wondered if she'd ever have a stable relationship with anyone. She went through a long stage of picking totally unsuitable short-term partners - one-night stands, addicts, someone on remand (!) - but as she improved, so did her sense of self-worth. Her now long-term partner is a lovely man who's seen her at her worst and is a rock for her - and they have built a loving and secure home for their baby. I only tell you this to reassure you that it IS possible for things to improve even if they look bleak. If only we knew this when we were suffering in the wee small hours, it might help a little, but sadly we don't.
I am so sorry that you are feeling worse yourself too. It makes things so much more difficult and overwhelming, but it WILL pass. I try to see my lower times as black clouds passing over the blue sky, and to imagine the blue sky still being there underneath. It doesn't lift my depression or anxiety but sometimes it feels comforting.
What I do find helpful is Mindfulness meditation.It's no quick fix by any means but rather a means to understanding and learning acceptance and living in the moment, rather than escaping from difficult emotions which can make them all the more frightening. I'd recommend a book by Danny Penman which has a CD of short meditations on it. I try to meditate every day if possible and to take a long-term view of its benefits rather than judge each meditation as 'good' or 'bad'.

The system in the UK sucks - I am most interested that it's rather better in France. I didn't know that therapy is free there and it sounds as if your partner is being rather better supported than we are in the UK.

I can't remember whether you mentioned what type of therapy your daughter is having and whether she accepts that she needs further help and support. My own psychiatrist was doubtful whether antidepressants would help me, but I was so low that I begged for them in the end. Mood stabilisers can help some people as mood swings can be overwhelmingly painful and debilitating for BPD sufferers. My daughter had antipsychotics at one time but no longer needs them. She is now on citalopram but it doesn't remove all the depression of course, and she still has anxiety much of the time, which she has learned to live better with. I am thinking that DBT could be an excellent way forward for your daughter as it teaches coping skills and strategies along with the intensive therapy. I'd have loved that myself but it wasn't on offer in my area. Instead I had Mentalisation Based therapy which I didn't get on with at all - it made me feel worse, but there are some patients who feel it helps them.
I hope that the predicted trouble with your other daughter doesn't materialise. Presumably she understands that your other daughter is unwell and all that that implies?

Thinking of you.

Rowan last point first - unfortunately DD1 currently has no empathy for DD2 - and will have even less when she receives a letter* from D2 which has been written last week and I think just posted :-( - even though she herself has suffered from depression adn anxiety and very low self esteem caused by severe bullying when she was at school. She is married to a nice guy who is shows symptoms of Asperger's although never officially diagnosed we can all recognise these symptoms and act accordingly with him so no great problem.

DD1 was helped to recovery when she was pregnant 2 years ago with DGS - fantastic therapy and support from St Thomas's Hospital in London and afterwards too in case of any PND which fortunately didn't occur. One would think that she would have more sympathy and empathy but although she has had at some stages she no longer does and just says it is bad behaviour on her sister's part. Which i is but there are reasons for someone thinking and acting the way DD2 does.

*I suspect DD2's therapist may have had a hand in this as ime that is something therapists do, not always wisely imo.

Mindfulness has been mentioned to me but in the past I have never been able to meditate at all. However I will re investigate as a friend of mine in France sees a practitioner in Paris who has helped her considerably where all else failed. It also helps that he speaks English!

Thanks again for mentioning Dialectical Behavioural Therapy - how did you convince your DD that she needed more help when she was gong through such difficulties? I am so glad she met a partner who is so supportive of her. DD2s first relationship lasted 6 years and he was a lovely chap who only in the end gave up because she was just so hard to live with and of course they were both in their early 20s with no experience to fall back on.

PS Rowan DD2 has just emailed me to say hat the letter she has sent is an olive branch to her sister no a rant as I expected! Am very proud of her.

Just a quick reply for now - I didn't have to convince her she needed help - she knew! She was living in London at the time, away from us, which was terrifying as we didn't ever know whether the lack of response to texts or contact meant she had self-harmed, made suicide attempts etc as if often did. She had repeated admissions to A&E departments in hospital, and also to a women's unit. It was from there that she was referred for DBT as where she lived in Islington it was available from an excellent team.
It took about 18 months and was far from easy. She tried to combine it with her journalism job which was very tricky, but then decided to go freelance which suited her mental health issues better. Her partner supported her throughout. She has always had an independent streak as far as we were concerned and was determined to live away from us and live her own life, but we had to learn to live with the terror (once you've nearly lost your child to serious suicide attempts you live with the fear indefinitely).

I am under no illusions that she is 'cured' and neither is she, but she is living a normal life now which we never thought possible. It had to come from her, in the end. It is so sad that your DD1 isn't as empathetic as you would wish after all her own suffering, and I hope that the repercussions of this letter aren't as dreadful as you fear. All you can now do is be there to pick up the pieces, feeling helpless - how well I know that feeling!
It's never easy to support children with mental health problems and even more difficult when we're suffering ourselves. But you have survived so far, Lucy - my guess is that you are stronger than you think you are. Just one baby step at a time - trying not to look too far ahead (easier said than done, I know!) and cheering yourself on from the sidelines. You've got this far and you've done well. Both your DDs have survived this far. They can get through the next difficult stage too. I hope you have support though because that is so important. Keep posting here, because the Gransnetters are a lovely bunch and it's often a relief to vent and get a virtual hug over the ether. Thinking of you. X

Thanks Rowan and hugs to you too as I seem to have hijacked your thread.

Take good care of yourself xx

That's OK, Lucy - it's everyone's thread anyway ;)

Woken up feeling anxious and rather low today - not sure why exactly but I had to take a sleeping pill last night to get a good night's sleep and I woke up feeling agitated about lots of things and thinking about how we wouldn't be seeing DGD for a month and how much she will have changed when we do. We saw her last week when we went over to give DD2 a couple of hours' break and had a lovely day, but DD2 didn't need/want us to come this week and we're going away on Sunday for 17 days.
Am I pathetic in feeling sad? She pointed out that her partner's parents, who live a long distance away, didn't see her often at all, and I know we are lucky enough to live not too far away to visit, but I ended up feeling guilty and still felt depressed at the thought of not seeing them for a month.
However....I kept my mouth firmly shut and didn't protest or complain. I guess it's something I need to keep to myself and I don't want to make it DD2's issue. She has enough to worry about without a needy and clinging mother asking to visit.
It would help if I could look forward to our holiday but I'm just feeling anxious about it as usual - am I the only one who feels like this? To those who don't get the chance to go away this must sound utterly ridiculous, but my anxiety looms large, especially when we go abroad. I don't want to spoil it for DH who is really enthusiastic about it, but his energy for sightseeing is far greater than mine, and I get anxious about toilets, feeling tired, getting ill, the food....and just worrying about whether I will enjoy it or not! So often I hear people say they had the 'best holiday ever' so feel very guilty and ashamed if I can't say the same.
I probably need a good kick up the arse....

I ALWAYS feel apprehensive before a holiday - always have, I think if you are a worrier then it comes with the territory. Even when we owned our own place abroad I would always get the feeling beforehand that I didn't want to go, fortunately once I got there I did enjoy myself, although I was never sorry to come home.

Once you get there, try to relax and enjoy yourself. My DH and I were something like you and yours except he liked to sit on a beach all day and I liked to explore so a couple of times during the holiday he would take himself off to the beach and I would go off for a wander, or join an organised trip. It worked for us.

I tend to as well.
But this time I can't wait. I think it's possibly because the last one was so traumatic with the airport problems and the weather being unusually wet and cold. Also I didn't have an Xmas one, so I'm really looking forward to this one.
The free upgrade to Queens Grill means I have a BUTLER and what's more TWO FREE BOTTLES OF VODKA and £764 free on board spend!
Must remember though that I DONT NEED TO BUY ANY MORE PEARLS!