No jab no job

Jaxjacky

Doodledog in France all children must have had 11 vaccinations before being accepted into school.

Quite right too, IMO. Unless there is good reason why not, I don't see an issue. I wouldn't support compulsory vaccinations, but at the same time, I think it is most unfair of people to refuse to vaccinate their children on the grounds that because most others have done so there is less of a risk to their children.

I feel the same about Covid - it infuriates me when people say that they will wait and see what happens to the rest of us before having a jab. Who do they think they are?

As a carrier do you mean MissAdventure?
Being vaccinated is thought to reduce the risk of transmission from what they have evidenced so far. I don’t think that’s the key though, I think employers will need to be able to demonstrate in court that they have taken every possible step to protect the vulnerable who due to their condition are unable to be vaccinated. To do that they will need documented evidence that the carers are vaccinated, otherwise the courts could find the employer negligent.

Casdon

As a carrier do you mean MissAdventure?
Being vaccinated is thought to reduce the risk of transmission from what they have evidenced so far. I don’t think that’s the key though, I think employers will need to be able to demonstrate in court that they have taken every possible step to protect the vulnerable who due to their condition are unable to be vaccinated. To do that they will need documented evidence that the carers are vaccinated, otherwise the courts could find the employer negligent.

But also adequate PPE and infection control surely? The vaccine is not enough on its own and especially if infection rates in the community are still relatively high

But, there are gaps between the vaccination and the efficacy.
It must vary from person to person.
Tests just tell you your test was negative now; no claims are made that you didn't have covid anymore.

This s an interesting link outlining the legal position

www.carehome.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1642095/can-care-homes-force-staff-have-covid-vaccine

Skating on thin ice to try and run homes with all staff fully vaccinated, as I thought.

Doodledog I agree with:

'I think it is most unfair of people to refuse to vaccinate their children on the grounds that because most others have done so there is less of a risk to their children.'

My first two children didn't have the whooping cough vaccine, on doctor's advice - due to epilepsy in the family.

The third and fourth did have it, though, again on doctor's advice.

Why? Because, by then, so many stupid parents had decided to not vaccinate (for no good reason) that the risks from whooping cough were far greater.

My kids had to take a small risk, the lesser of two evils - directly due to the irresponsible behaviour of others.

I don't believe in compulsory vaccination for all, though.

Employers should be able to make it compulsory for jobs - and schools for entry. After all, you can choose another job or home school your kids!

I know that the NHS are looking at this in detail already, and whilst it won’t happen immediately, I do think the duty of care to patients/clients will ultimately assume precedence. It will be a long battle. The odds are that they will start with a clause in new employees contracts, but that won’t be the end - legal challenges, employment tribunals etc etc to follow - interesting times ahead. The difficulty for employees is I think that all the religions have endorsed the vaccine, millions of people have already been vaccinated with minimal side effects, etc. so there are very limited grounds for refusal that will stand up.

I think at the moment that there’s too much huffing and puffing about this issue ( I mean in general ). It’s interesting that quite a few of us on here are undecided or have misgivings or think there’s a lot of complex issues to consider. A gung ho no holds barred approach won’t work - not least because of the law( which is an important issue). The govt won’t legislate imo - if they did we’d be looking at the ECHR eventually I’m sure not to mention a goodly number of their own backbenchers.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
Having said that, for all my absolute, unshakeable belief in allowing people freedom, I would be livid if my loved one was in a care home with staff who chose not to be vaccinated.

MissAdventure, same here - but what about all the hospital workers and nurses who refuse vaccination? Surely, the public have a right to refuse care/treatment by a person who's not vaccinated?

*I don't believe in compulsory vaccination for all, though.

Employers should be able to make it compulsory for jobs - and schools for entry. After all, you can choose another job or home school your kids!*

No, I don't believe that it should be compulsory either - I said so in a previous post. I do, however, think that it should be up to individuals to choose not to socialise with those who refuse to have it. It comes down to informed consent.

I don't think that people who are unable to have it for medical reasons should 'stand out' in any way, though. However it is recorded for those who have it should be the same for medically exempt people, eg a 'passport' or certificate should not differentiate between the two groups. It should only be those who refuse who should be seen to be different.

Not sure how I feel about that either, lots of the decisions we make about control of others have unintended consequences.

Hetty58

MissAdventure, same here - but what about all the hospital workers and nurses who refuse vaccination? Surely, the public have a right to refuse care/treatment by a person who's not vaccinated?

Yes. And a right to refuse to have their hair cut, or their children taught by a deliberately unvaccinated person, or to sit next to them in the theatre or on the bus.

Galaxy

Not sure how I feel about that either, lots of the decisions we make about control of others have unintended consequences.

You are right, of course, and this is not the way I usually think, but I do feel strongly about it. I suspect because of what happened to my son when he was a baby, as I described upthread.

How about hospital and care workers having the right to refuse to care for unvaccinated people?
People who work (and the public who use) hospital canteens, and lifts, and shops?

Someone may need chemo, should they be refused if they aren't vaccinated?

Someone is in a terrible accident requiring emergency care.
Would it be right to leave them to it if they aren't vaccinated?

I think it's very complex doodledog because I also agree with the whole point of protecting the vulnerable. But what if the vulnerable are the unvaccinated. So do we ban unvaccinated residents from care homes for example.
I am sorry about what happened to your son, that must have been dreadful at an already stressful time.

I think it was nightowl who expressed grave misgivings about this "no jab, no job" proposal. I agree with her that it could be a very slippery slope to insist that some jobs must include proof of vaccine. And there seems to be a likelihood that a person would have to continue having boosters and possibly different vaccines to counter different strains of the virus.

It is this sort of state control that allows governments to argue certain laws forcing people to undergo medical procedures are "for the good of the nation". In China, when it was thought the population was growing too fast to be realistically sustainable, the government imposed a one child policy. There were cases of women being forced to have abortions and of families being impoverished by high fines. Do we really want to live in a country where a person can be denied access to jobs or amenities or is subjected to hatred and derision from the majority?

I think people should have the right to refuse medical interventions. Every winter, there is grave concern that there will be an unusually contagious and deadly flu outbreak - and every year many lives are lost through flu. Should we then apply the "no jab, no job" in relation to flu also?

I would never try to persuade anyone to have or not have the vaccine. I believe it is important that people have the right of control over their own bodies. To impose these sorts of restrictions to jobs is, in effect, forcing many people to be vaccinated. And where will it end - will there be "mission creep", whereby, as has been suggested recently, those without proof of vaccination will be denied entry to shops, restaurants, cinemas, etc etc?

Vaccination is totally unnecessary for large swathes of the population.
Once everyone who is vulnerable has been vaccinated there will be even less of a need to vaccinate the young.
Compulsory vaccination - by the back door - is yet another nail in the coffin of our liberal democracy.

I’d bet my bottom dollar that will come in in Australia. It is just our sort of thing. Like no school if they haven’t got a vaccination certificate.

I’m finding this discussion really helpful in sorting out all the many and complex issues invest involved. Yesterday it was also covered wall to wall on other forms of media and whilst some of the discussion was good, there was also a certain feel of the baying mob wanting to hunt down the evil unvaccinated. It’s almost a year since health and care workers were facing Covid head on without even proper PPE ( I remember the use of black bin bags), they worked to exhaustion on our behalf and some died, lived separately from their families for weeks to keep them safe. Lots of other workers like bus drivers and shop workers begged for screens or the right to wear masks at work. Even today many public facing workers have to put up with selfish people putting them at risk. So I suppose my point is that we should remember this and treat all these workers with respect and the minority who are refusing a vaccine should not be so harshly criticised but different methods used.

Grannyrose15 Could you quantify your statement Vaccination is totally unnecessary for large swathes of the population.?

A few links to reputable peer reviewed research would be helpful.

I was thinking about the situation in France with regard to compulsory vaccination for schooling. I wonder how that works in practice. Obviously there will be exemptions for those who cant have the vaccines for health reasons but presumably there will need to be exemptions for children where there are safeguarding issues. Which actually in each school will be quite a number of children.

nanna8

I’d bet my bottom dollar that will come in in Australia. It is just our sort of thing. Like no school if they haven’t got a vaccination certificate.

And that’s the way to do it! I like the way things are managed over there nanna!