Child Bride dies

Heartbreaking. And the whole issue of 'culture' carries so much baggage with it. For anyone who is interested it's worth reading Facing Mount Kenya by Jomo Kenyatta written in 1938. The eulogising forward is by Professor Malinovsky who extols the insights it gives into Kikuyu culture. It was required reading for every European going to live or work in East Africa for many years - and perhaps even now. And it contains fascinating insights into Kikuyu life. But - referred to eliptically, is a celebration of male and female 'circumcision'. I remember vividly challenging those who briefed us (this was in the 70s) and being told in no uncertain terms that it was not our place as former colonial oppressors to challenge African culture and practice.

Later, I worked with Aftrican sisters whose infirmary, which was principally designed as a leprosarium, cared for far too many girls from the outlying villages who had been 'cut'. They did their best but Sister Frances, who was both a doctor and Prioress and a Kikuyu, said that changing the cultural practices was impossibly hard. In fact, in Kenya, I understand the practice has pretty well died out, which is encouraging, but sadly it still flourishes, as we kow, elsewhere.

It is certainly the case that in this country we must do all that we can in every way possible to prevent this practice. But changing hearts and minds is hard. Both here and overseas. We need far more African women to qualify as health professionals and associated occupations to begin to effect change.

And as a footnote, when I left Africa, I was given a number of artefacts to remind me of my years there. Among them is a male and a female circumcision knife, so that, as Sister Frances said, you can explain back at home what some girls here have to endure.

One thing that I think is causing caution in tackling FGM in Britain is what happens to the children if you prosecute the parents?

Do you imprison the parents who might other wise be caring parents who have been heavily pressured by relatives and feel that they may be shunned for not following family tradition. Such action as removing children from their families could cause a lot more emotional damage.

I am in no way wanting to go soft on this appalling practice but the Government has to think about how best to do this without causing more problems for the children concerned.

By all means go for those who carry out these practices particularly those in the medical profession who should know better.

I also understand this is a cultural practice and is not confined in any way to Islamic religious belief.

I am just hoping that the government will get their heads around doing this in the most effective way, which is probably to engage heavily in acceptable educational tactics in those communities where this practice is rife.
Child sponsorship charities such as Plan have put a lot of energy into educational projects to try to stop this practice in the associated countries.

What kind of man does this? One of the kind that can watch a girl who has been raped being lashed as an adultress.
I am always being told I shouldn't tar all muslim men with the same brush, but if enough of them would stand up and be counted they could stop their womenfolk being treated so cruelly. Are they just too scared, or do they actually enjoy the power it gives them?

Greatnan, I have in front of me an article in The Guardian reporting a UN study on men and violence. Nearly a quarter of men in the Asia Pacific region - that includes China, admitted to raping at least once, a woman who was not their partner. They said it was because 'they felt entitled' and 'for entetainment'. The highest prevalence was in Papua New Gunea at 62% and the lowest in Bangladesh at 9.5%.

It seems to be not Islam that is the problem, but the social norms in which men grow up. That is the normalisation of violence against women, the notion of 'manhood' and the use of violence to discipline children.

Thank you, Micelf - I will extend my rage to all such men, whatever their religion. However, I think it would give a good example if all religions, including Christianity, removed all distinctions between the respect accorded to men and women. And I don't buy the 'equal but different' argument - opportunities should be equal for all.

That's a very good point, MiceElf. I've posted elsewhere about this issue today and it concerns me that by concentrating on any religious involvement, either perceived or real, the campaign ends up diffuse and diluted. Stick to the main issue!

Report of Muslim woman threatened with whipping for not wearing hijab, in Australia.

I agree, mice and lily, but we do hear a lot about it affecting muslim women, and other oppressive rules, so it's not surprising people associate the problems with Islam as well as other primitive cultural ideas.

bags I think the article you are referring to was published in an Australian paper but the woman in question lives in the Sudan.

Isn't it about time that western governments tackle these questions head on. Tell the countries who impose FGM, child marriages, whipping etc. that they must stop these barbaric practices. I think if enough of the G8 countries presented a united front against these practices it could have the desired effect.

I only wish I could believe that would happen, Sunseeker. I don't know if you have read my post above about my experience in Africa?

Changing cultural practices has to come from within the community itself. Imposition from western or wealthy governments will simply cause resentment and drive the practice even more to secrecy.

One way to ensure the west does everything it can to etadicate this, is to educate girls from those countries who are resident here and make aid contingent on ensuring girls' education. Women need to train as doctors and nurses and teachers and community leaders. It will be hard and difficult but progress can be made if there is reasonably stable government in place. Kenya is a case in point. But where you have a failed state such as the Sudan or Somalia it becomes infinitely difficult.

It's difficult to draw a parallel but imagine if an Eastern bloc country declared that all women in Britain were oppressed and must henceforth wear boiler suits and flat boots. Not a good example, admittedly, but you can see how resentment and the idea of interference would make change even harder.

I take your point MiceElf and I agree education is the way forward, but how do we ensure that children (male and female) get that education. If more aid went direct to schools, clinics etc. instead of being handed to a government it might make a difference.

It's just that I get so angry when I read about child marriages, FGM etc. that the logical side of my brain gets shouted down by the side that wants to cut out the hearts of the people responsible. (Not very Christian of me I know).

I deeply sympathise Sunseeker. It's hard to know what any of us in the west can do. But I suppose as mainly retired people we could make sure we thoroughly research charities which campaign and actively work to eliminate this practice.

Those who are still in employment and have contact with girls and women from these societies need to be active in their professional associations, and those who have access to media need to keep the matters firmly in the public consciousness.

And we all need to raise the matter with our MPs.

BTW I can't post pictures from my old iPad but if anyone feels that it might be educative to see an FGM knife I can send a photo to them by email to post on here.

Have pm-ed you, mice.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/sep/07/female-genital-mutilation-tradition-somalia

I think Mice is right. This is really about education. Mothers and grandmothers must be encouraged to recognise this practice for what it is - a vile assault on a defenceless child. The Guardian recently had an article in which a grandmother who'd undergone FGM and who'd agreed to the procedure being carried out on her own children, finally found the courage to say that her grandchildren should not be mutilated in this horrific way.

Change through education may take some time. In the interim, I think the suggestion that someone on GN made that the person who performs the FGM should be charged is a good one - I would imagine young women would probably be very reluctant to get a parent into trouble. And if there were an anonymous "hotline" on which the young women involved or anybody else could report a possible pending FGM procedure, perhaps that would help too.

Yes I agree - we have a law in this country that says it is illegal to perform this procedure. So let's see some prosecutions of the practitioners.

This is a thread that will run and run, it's clear we all feel very anti FGM it should not have any place in our society and and in an ideal world it wouldn't have a place in anyone else's either. What is it that these people fear or dare I say even hate about their female counterparts so much so that they could contemplate causing them such extreme physical pain.

I take your point MiceElf about educating the girls who may be subjected to this practice but they still have to live with families, which will undoubtedly be run by the male members. We all know of some of the dire consequences girls from certain backgrounds have experienced when they have tried to live a western lifestyle, not even an outrageous one, just wanting an education, they have in the worst case scenarios been killed by fathers, brothers and uncles.

We are a country that has had wave upon wave of incomers over the centuries, and all have brought different ways and customs but I think it's fair to say that after a generation or two, possibly sooner most have become British with foreign roots. I know that was how it was for my father and his siblings, my grandfather was an immigrant but married a British woman. My father, his sisters and brother were comfortably able to identify with both cultures but living here the British side would be at the fore. Possibly being only half and half makes the whole process easier. Also when previous generations made the transition to another country, the separation from their mother country was more absolute when the only form of communication with your relatives was a letter. People were not able to float backwards and forwards I know my father and his siblings never got to meet their paternal grandparents, foreign travel wasn't a possibility for the masses before the war.

We now live in age where the internet and travel means new immigrants never really have to "leave" their place of birth and in some cultures they appear rooted and affiliated to the old country. It also appears to me where we had immigrants who would have at least taken on some aspects of their adopted country, certain communities are bucking that trend and returning to cultural roots that their parents/grandparents tried to throw off. Yes I concede there are examples of ex pat communities down in say certain parts of Spain who do very little to assimilate with the Spanish, more fool them, it doesn't usually mean however that the female members of those communities are living in some sort of purdah which is how I perceive some women from certain communities here live. Again expecting women to live an isolated existence in a foreign land is yet another example of control. How to overcome a mindset that wishes to wield absolute power over the female members of their society can probably only happen with enormous interference from the state which would no doubt drive a further wedge into communities who do not look upon their parent country favourably.

Hear hear BAnanas What can we do about it? Publicity, ensuring that no girls in this country suffer (and that involves all this who work with young and teenage girls of the relevant ethnic background) and speaking up. Has it ever been discussed by the WI at their AGM for instance ? They saw Tony Blair off and although I am not a member I believe that they have more to them than jam and Jerusalem.

Definitely an Australian report about a woman being whipped in Sudan not Australia baggy. Whipping does not happen here, nor does Sharia law.

FGM is illegal in Australia and people are charged and jailed for this heinous crime.

Faye which people are jailed - parents or the perpetrator etc.

It is legalised paedophilia.

I wonder if Childline could set up a dedicated phone line for girls who had suffered, or were threatened with FGM? Or somebody like Joanna Lumley to arouse interest as she did for the Ghurkas.

Miceself I think it would be educational. I don't think I can do it (technophobe, that's me) but would be good if someone could!

It's there already, Galen. FGM Knives.

I sent the photo to thatbags who has posted on the thread marked FGM.

Can WE as gransnet do anything you think. I'd be willing to do anything I could as I think it is the most abominable practice!