The one indisputable FACT in this referendum debate

know

BUT every Brexit person I have spoken to believes that they ONLY enter UK to take benefits ---- FACT!!!!!
Welshwife I am worried about the type of people you speak to
I have spoken to Brexiters and Bremainers and haven't heard that stated by anyone at all.

@Jalima

My friend's son was in the same situation, so I know how much grief if causes and how much it cost for him to come to the UK. He was actually deported on his eighteenth birthday and it took nearly two years for him to come back. However, this is a result of the UK's immigration policies, not the EU.

@Jalima

I know this is anecdotal, but this is exactly what my window cleaner and his mate think. There was also a Vote Leave stall in my local market a couple of weeks ago. I eavesdropped some of the conversations and this was what people were being told. Somebody was trying to challenge the claim, but a small group just shouted them down.

Oh Anya do read properly. I admit I had to post and run but it really wasn't that difficult.

I did not say you were not aware it was me but coming on here to make a joke at my expense was typical of your standards of unpleasantness when you hadn't even bothered to say on the other thread that you were talking about something you had posted elsewhere.

As for putting words into your mouth Anya - I followed normal convention and put quotes round your words and then followed it with my view which was not in quotes.

Anya you may believe you have balls to state your OP is a fact I think it takes courage to disagree on this forum and I do. It is not a fact that "that if we remain, we will continue to have no control over numbers of immigrants from the EU, entering the country." It may become a fact but it is still possible to change things if our current government got off their backsides and did not leave the EU to trundle along so they could play politics with one another in the UK.

Pippa000 has commented on the difference in the pull factors - we could look at these. Daphne explained that we have just won a case so we do not have to send money for children in their home country if the person working here does not have permission for permanent residence. Many of countries in the EU also have issues with the numbers of low skilled workers - we could join with them to work out better ways to make this area of the EU work. This lily-livered government did not do anything until it had no choice. If a government was determined we could get the best from freedom of movement. Your "fact" cannot be a fact; it is the future and we all know that you cannot predict the future only estimate what it will be and that makes it an opinion. It can be a more or a less informed opinion based on critical thinking.

Ana more nasty remarks I see. I must remember to check how well written your posts are; after all that is what we are on here for isn't it to check how well written posts are.

@Gracesgran

It's not just benefits for EU children who don't live in the UK which have been curbed, but children who live here, unless their parents have contributed for four years. General cuts to all tax credits will deter anybody who mistakenly thought they could come to the UK for a free ride.

You're absolutely right about push and pull factors, which are in the long run more effective than laws. The UK can't control the push factors, but we have a great deal of total control over the pull factors.

A previous poster has demonstrated how Cyprus has controlled pull factors and there is no earthly reason why a UK government couldn't take similar measures without contravening any EU rules.

There was nothing 'nasty' about my post, Gracesgran. I merely pointed out that the way your reply was written it was understandable that Anya thought you were agreeing with her point.

You really do take umbrage easily, don't you?

Why do some people get so unpleasant on some of these threads?! And Im not referring to anyone in particular , its just a general observation. Surely we can have different points of view without squabbling like children? And its been remarked on more than one thread that Remainers are taking over or attacking Brexiters. It seems to me that the reverse is true! I personally am strongly in favour of staying in the EU but many friends and neighbours want to leave. However, we have not fallen out over it!

Thanks daphne. I have only caught little bits on the car radio so good to be updated.

You are so right about us being able to take measures similar to Cyprus without contravening EU rules. So often governments have allowed blame to rest with the EU when it has been their decision not to use the rules available.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!

pollyperkins- just as I see it- which is why I've been keeping well away. Sad.

Yes I'm not the only one saddened by the level of debate not just here but everywhere. The football hooligans in France chanting " f*ck off Europe we're out" . Why did our stupid government call a referendum? We vote in governments to make important political and economic decisions, not to leave it up to people who haven't a clue ( me included).

Because it was promised in their manifesto, which is presumably why some people voted for them.

I totally agree with you suzied. And I bet Cameron's wishing he'd never thought of the idea in the first place.

He should have told Farage to take a running jump.

Actually,quite a lot of us in the UK wanted a referendum,the EU we have at present is nothing like the organisation it was in the 1970's or even 1980's, a pity it changed.
The OP's opening post is correct, at the moment we have no control over numbers coming here from EU countries.It may be pie in the sky to think the EU will 'reform' itself on this issue.In fact all we hear is the word reform, over and over again.

Why did our stupid government call a referendum? We vote in governments to make important political and economic decisions, not to leave it up to people who haven't a clue ( me included).

I couldn't agree more suzied . I think they put things in the manifesto because they did not think they would be held to account by winning. It is their job not ours and has cost large amounts of money and energy when they could be doing better things for the country.

Well I responded to your OP on the other thread as well Anya but here we go again.
EU immigration is essential for the NHS and for the economy in many areas of the country. if they jobs dry up, the immigrants depart. In the main they are coming here to work for a while not to settle. When the construction industry screeched to a halt 7 years ago, Polish plumbers etc went home. The same happened in Ireland when their economy took a dive.
There is clear evidence that immigrants make a net contribution to the UK economy. They went from very rapid net migration to net emigration in no time flat when their economy good a dive.
www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2015/
It is a fact that immigrants make an excellent contribution both in labour and in the taxes they pay.
Here is just one study by UCL.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study
So your OP is based on the false premise that EU immigration is a problem.

And a comment on the throwaway remark above, that those in Calais are all "illegals". Most of them would say they were asylum seekers, which is not an illegal status. They are in Calais because they would like to claim asylum in the UK and not in France. Many of them come from very frightening places. Many of them are very young. In many cases this is because they have family members here who are waiting to take them in. In some cases because they want to see asylum here because they speak English and not French. Many of them have useful qualifications. (This info from a friend who spent a month in Calais camp recently)

So often governments have allowed blame to rest with the EU when it has been their decision not to use the rules available.
I think you're right there, Gracesgran
Or they have done what they want to do, contravened EU rules and taken the consequences!

I did read somewhere (Independent I think, and I am sure I posted a link somewhere) that Ed M refused to countenance a referendum and it was not included in his manifesto, against the wishes of some of his party.

Jalima
I totally agree with what you say re Digby Jones and the engineers - I wondered why he didn't look in the EU first where he would have had no problem - he gave no clue as to the type of engineer he needed or where it was location wise.

As to the Brexiters - one is a family member which I had no idea about and initially I thought they were just trying to wind me up - since I have had news that another couple are the same!!! The other people were the first ones I came across and was totally bemused - they have a holiday home in Spain and are well travelled. I said very little as they got so wound up I think it would have affected our friendship - but I have to admit go now feeling totally differently towards them.

This from 2013:
Ed Balls has been repeatedly dropping hints that he thinks a referendum is the right policy for us. Most recently, on Friday, Ed Balls said “I certainly don’t think we can ever afford to give the impression that we know better than the voting public.” This follows similar comments a few weeks before (also in the Yorkshire Post). Keith Vaz has been arguing for a referendum ‘now’ for months, and is feeling truly vindicated that so many others in the Party have come round to his position, because “we cannot afford to be painted as anti-democratic”.

Personally, as I speak to more and more Labour members, activists, candidates and those already elected, I see that there is a serious shift. People see the validity of the argument, and mostly think that ‘In’ will win any vote and, most importantly, understand that it is the symbolism of truly consulting the people that matters most. John Prescott saw that, and so he is calling for us to support an EU Referendum, and that is why he was Deputy Prime Minister in one of the greatest governments this country has ever had.

Dominic Moffit is Campaign Director of Labour for a Referendum

So, Cameron was promising what Labour wanted too and which Ed Miliband failed to deliver.

I still think it is a mistake.

Well, of course, there are many types of engineers!

I do too J certainly. The wrong time - it all seemed too rushed for people give proper thought and the ideas yo settle down. As far as I am concerned I saw very little as to what DC had negotiated in Brussels and the impact it would have so we have hot this far and people are still unaware.

[[http://www.digbylordjones.com/oh-for-ten-engineers-to-fall-out-of-the-sky-like-manna-from-heaven!.html]
He doesn't specify what kind of engineer!

Mine may be the 'wrong sort' like the 'wrong sort of snow'

www.digbylordjones.com/oh-for-ten-engineers-to-fall-out-of-the-sky-like-manna-from-heaven!.html