The one indisputable FACT in this referendum debate

Mind you WW if we had more time to think we would also have more time to argue

There seems to ba a selective amnesia when it comes to political parties and their promises of giving us a referendum on the EU.

This has been promised by Labour, Lib Dems and Conservatives. Who can forget Tony Blair promising us a referendum ? Who can forget Gordon Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty without the Labour promise being carried out? David Cameron promised to give us a referendum but it had already been signed so it has taken almost a further 10 years for a promise of a referendum to be kept.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-1539088

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15390884

There are indeed many different specialisms within engineering and many of them are in short supply in the UK.
I think he is being economical with the truth because ion EU citizens can come here if they have a job offer. And only if they have a job offer (Unless they have some other reason why they can work here - to do with nationality of parents etc)
If we left the EU he would have to go through the same bureaucratic rigmarole for everyone he recruited from EU as well as from outside it.

I was surprised that neither Jo Coburn nor Liz whatever (labour MP) didn't ask him why he didn't try to find an European one - does he have a business in India and maybe they are already working for him?

I don't think he actually runs any businesses, although he's the Chair of many. He's a trained lawyer.

I agree that he's probably being somewhat economical with the truth. Maybe the business wanted to pay these particular engineers minimum wage.

Ironically, he's one of those élite corporatists BREXITERs are always complaining about.

Many different sorts of engineer are on the UK Tier 2 skilled shortage list. If these engineers weren't given visas, it was because their specialisms weren't in short supply or the business wasn't prepared to pay them a minimum threshold.

Business owners find all kinds of ways to bend the rules. Where I used to live there was an office block full of Indian telecoms engineers (working for a company subcontracting to BT if I remember correctly). They were employed on Indian salaries and an Indian "expat" deal but they still worked out cheaper than other options. The staff could only work in the UK as long as they were working for this company.

How do you know we won't be sending anyone home? Have you been promised the PM's job?

Seriously, you don't know. You're not stating facts.

@JessM

Filipino careworker contractors do exactly the same. The workers can't work for another employer. The employers pay rubbish wages and often deduct some for accommodation, meals and uniform, etc. It's all perfectly legal.

These are the vultures who will move in if the supply of cheap Eastern European labour dries up.

Did anyone watch the programme on immigration on BBC2 tonight.
Alan Johnson said we do have control over immigration from the EU. We have stopped between 1000 and 2000 every year.

fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

Real facts about immigration from the EU.

fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-deporting-eu-immigrants/

fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-limiting-residence-rights/

i0.wp.com/voxpoliticalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/160614-UK-revenue-from-migrants.jpg

Do you count this as a fact? This is how much money we get from immigrants working in this country, and it's more than we pay to the EU.

www.cream-migration.org/index.php

From this organisation, which has lots of facts.

Oh come on Practical, your population growth figures are fantasy. The UK has not had a population under 50 million since before 1955 when it was 51 million.

The growth rate of the UK population has been slowing since 2010 and is predicted to keep on slowing down right up to 2050.

And us oldies are living longer - the average age of the population is getting higher.

That why we need immigration.

I agree, Nuttynana. As this is a thread for indisputable facts, here are a couple:

According to the ONS, the population of the UK in 2000 was 58,886.100 (not 50 million as claimed). The last time the population was below 50 million was in 1947, when it was 49,538,700.

The birthrate is falling. The number of teenagers and people in their early 20s is falling, but the number of people over 65 is rising.

And the migrant population at the last count was roughly 3,000,000. Hardly being swamped.

Some more indisputable facts:

Some areas, such as Liverpool have been experiencing a population decrease since before WW2.

The population of the Liverpool city council area was 846,101 in 1931 and decreased in every census until 2011, when it increased slightly to 466,415, but is still only just over half the population of 1931.

The UK isn't 'full'. The problem is that wealth and jobs are distributed unequally in many ways, including geographically.

The way cities are laid out, and where jobs are, and infastructure currently is, makes it feel full.
The roads are crowded, NHS is struggling,school places that parents want are full, etc.

Uncontrolled immigration? No thanks.
And it is the poorest and vulnerable people who suffer most. Which is why Labour can't control the situation. They want to vote Brexit.

I reallt can't be bothered to check every link that people post, but since it is now obvious from a couple of threads recently that the links are chosen specifically for what a person wants to convey, do your own checking is best.

And I am really going to have to say it again. JessM, people are not talking about those sorts of immigrants. Sigh.

Many of inner city dwellers in Liverpool were moved out to places like Kirkby in slum clearance schemes DD.

GG thanks for the tirade, and advice to read more carefully. I think you will find that this thread was started after your joking remark.

@Anya

Yes, they did, but many couldn't find work and moved to different areas of the country. I'm one of them.

Dumped in high rise flats in Kirkby and Cantril Farm and communities broken up. Not the best example of housing policy the 'experts' got that seriously wrong DD

thread drift

The population of all Merseyside districts (which includes all the estates in Kirby, etc) was 1,670.104 in 1961 and decreased every year until very recently. In 2008, it was 1,347,800.

I know Merseyside well, but I expect the same pattern is evident in other areas.