Could this be the start of a nasty period in Britain as Brexit starts to hit?

So you don't think there is a moral or ethical case for the UK agreeing that EU residents can stay?

Fortunately the Lords disagree with you.

Are you happy that 60% of European doctors working in the UK are thinking of leaving?
I noticed one Lord said that an exception should be made for those working in the NHS. I disagree. That means that every sector can be bargained over.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/28/gmc-poll-suggests-half-of-european-doctors-are-considering-quitting-uk

This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with Brexit - nothing. This woman (for perfectly respectable reasons, it appears) invalidated her residential permit by extended visits to Singapore and a more permanent permit has not been achieved (we don't know why,but it seems likely it has to do with the previous invalidation). She was, however allowed a visitor's permit which ran out THREE YEARS AGO. She has been living here illegally ever since. So, instead of permits, why didn't she seek citizenship 27 years ago on her marriage or in any of the years since? Before travelling to Singapore for extended visits why didn't she ask how long she might be allowed to stay there under the terms of her residency permit? She must have realised a visitors permit would run out. Did she seek to renew it? If not, why not? As a result she has been living here illegally for the last three years, long before Brexit became a possibility, much less a reality. Realistically she has had plenty of time to explore all possibilities in order to remain here, and presumably would not have been trying to do this alone as she has a British born husband and British children to help her through the complexities of the system. But they apparently did nothing, they all kept their heads down under the radar for THREE years, and now she has been removed with all the upset and hurt that might have been easily avoided.

Golly I'm flipping annoyed....Why is it reasonable or moral to use people as bargaining tools at all?! On both sides of the Channel, these 'bargaining tools' are people who for 40 years and in good faith, have moved between countries, often doing valuable study and work and marrying others of a different nationality. Now, because of a badly run, shot-through-with-lies Leave campaign, paid for by an American billionaire and others:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

.... they have become bargaining tools! So many of the endlessly trotted out arguments about 'taking back control' and 'making our own laws' and 'controlling our borders' are utter nonsense, fallacious and a cover up for the Tory government's inefficiency or mean minded austerity.

I'm ashamed to be part of a country which is one of the worst places to be an asylum seeker apparently
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/01/britain-one-of-worst-places-western-europe-asylum-seekers

and how does that sit with being a magnet for hordes (10 million? Come off it), who want to come and live on benefits? Actually it's now being made almost impossible to get anything anymore be it disability or other benefits, citizenship or residence rights.

Lastly, if you want to be childish and start slinging insults about like Remoaner, well I just think Brexidiot. And as for 'pulling together' and 'being positive', I find it almost impossible to be positive day by day when I see headlines about the downside of leaving the EU, especially when serious politicans and former PMs are aghast. And really, what exactly does 'pull together' mean?? I think it means head in the sand of the little people, pretend nothing's happening and you know what happened in Germany in the 1930s when people took that stance.......

www.open-britain.co.uk/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FOpenBritain%2Fphotos%2Fa.1016792188361105.1073741828.1014500498590274%2F1507479962625656%2F%3Ftype%3D3&e=9c72ff9a9aedb6ba3b18febaa14059ad&utm_source=in&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=obemail_30&n=2

To put on facebook if you agree that MPs should back the lords amendment.

To return to the original discussion, the Huffington Post did not give enough background to this story and I feel in these cases rather than make snap judgements it is worth looking at more than one source: www.buzzfeed.com/emilydugan/irene-clennell-exile-singapore?utm_term=.mbOGj3NjK#.am1v8ao8Q
also: yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/01/deporting-irene-clennell-was-wrong-say-nearly-two-/
While I think that it is rather harsh, and sad for her and the family it does seem that she has perhaps not always followed the correct procedures required for her to remain.

Golly Azie09, I'm flipping annoyed at your ridiculous , alarmist view that Britain today is teetering on the brink of becoming like Nazi Germany. Risible!

The problem is the EU are playing the same card over 'EU Nationals/Reciprocal Rights', there are more than one party at fault.

I understand the argument the UK could 'unilaterally' allow EU Nationals a right to reside , but equally so could the EU Commission. There has been Nothing/Nada/zilch/ coming from Brussels to give any indication they want to stop using Citizens as pawns in their negotiations. They are playing a harder ball than Theresa May for sure.

EU Nationals by the way are those living outside of their own country from the ' 28 Nations ' in the EU and Theresa May must do all she can to protect those UK Citizens living in the other ' 27 Nations ' when we Leave.

Theresa May has stated this:-

"Rights for EU nationals in Britain, and British nationals in the EU: we want to guarantee these rights as early as we can. We have told other EU leaders that we can offer EU nationals here this certainty, as long as this is reciprocated for British citizens in EU countries.".

There has been numerous amounts of coverage reporting how Angela Merkel and Donald Tusk have 'refused' to agree to any 'Reciprocal Rights of EU Nationals' UNTIL ARTICLE 50 has been triggered.

As for the House of Lords Ammentment tonight I will remind people the longer the delay in triggering Article 50 , the length of time the 'ping pong' goes on between the House Of Lords and Parliament, the longer the anguish goes on for EU Nationals here and also our UK Nationals living abroad in the EU Nations.

At least Theresa May has tried to obtain EU Nationals Reciprocal Rights but if the EU Commission refuse then I think for the sake of those UK Nationals in the other 27 Nations she has a duty towards them and doing ' what it takes ' to ensure their protection , her job is to protect UK Citizens as Prime Minister.

Well said POGS
All the Lords have done is assert their muscle.......but the reality is the the HOC has the last word, and it is just delaying tactics by the Lords.

The EU has no need to decide anything until May hands them article 50.
There is no need for them to do anything.
Theresa May could refuse to do it. She could say she's changed her mind.
We are the ones who are upsetting the status quo, not the EU.

Yes, they were bound to do that. Strange how some who claim to despise the very existence of the House of Lords welcome its input when it suits them!

We will be leaving the EU.....there is no going back.

Oh FFS! I have just come back on here to read this and yet again, ad nauseum, those who voted Brexit have hijacked a thread and are telling those of us who voted remain to 'suck it up'. Well, actually, I am sick to death of people who have voted on the basis of lies, telling me that I have to put up with the impact of their ill considered vote. As for those of you daft enough to think that things are going to get better in the work force, boy are you in for a shock. It is regulations from the EU that protect the workforce, provide maternity rights and rights to time off to look after family etc., quizqueen you are wrong, as a remainer, I do not blame the mythical huge numbers of immigrants for shortages in GP surgeries/school places/house building. I am smarter than that and realise that these shortages are caused by deliverate under investment, but blamed on immigrants by the red top press. If this was the basis for your vote you have been misled.

What a brilliant post Azie, couldn't have put it better.

Azie a well argued and great post, and sums it accurately how I feel, and thankfully less cross and bad tempered than my previous post! I apologise if I have offended anyone by telling the truth, but I get so exasperated by trite 'taking back control' type comments. This country is fast heading towards getting a dreadful reputation for our treatment of people who were not born here, and I for one find it shameful.

I agree wih dmj. There is no talk of British citizens having to leave Germany. Until Brexit has taken place nothing will be said but one thing is clear, those who get German citizenship will have it fully, but those who get the British will only ever be second class as to be truly British you have to have been born in Britain and have a British mother.

(Or has the law been amended since2008?)

DD1 was born in the Uk so her son has more chance of becoming a British citizen than those doctors living and working there.

Oh please! The EU Guy Verhagstadt has said that he wants to give UK citizens rights to become EU citizens and the application would seem to be quite easy - he has made a number the statements over the months. We here are reasonably sure we will have the right to stay but the worry for many of us - especially those of us retired - is the healthcare situation. Hopefully they will agree to keep the reciprocal arrangements - which I believe are cheaper for the UK than if we all come back! If they do not do that then it will be financially impossible for many to remain.

I belong to one of the groups which lobbied the House of Lords. All the groups with any EU citizens living in another country have linked together. Letters from all groups were sent to each peer so they all had the information. Many of the peers sent very nice replies unlike some MPs who were less than polite to some of their ex constituents - forgetting of course they could well become constituents again. I don't suppose they thought their replies would have been published for all members of the groups to see!
A number of peers met with members of the groups and indeed some were called to give evidence to the Parliamentary committee chaired by Hilary Benn.

The feeling of UK citizens living in EU was overwhelmingly to support the EU people living in UK in their fight to remain. Many of them have been there for a great proportion of their lives and most if them are well qualified people doing jobs the UK needs their skills for. There are however a worrying number talking about obtaining jobs in Continental Europe to be certain of their future.

As to the poor lady deported to Singapore. The visas for these people married to UK citizens changed only about four years ago - prior to that it was a six month one then a five year which morphed almost automatically into a Visa of long duration or indefinite stay. I am aware of this as we have a family member married to a Thai. In between the 5 year visa being applied for and granted and the Thai lady arriving back in UK the rights changed. It was the Border Control people who told her husband that even though they were married and a five year visa had been paid for she could only stay 30 months and then needed to reapply for the other half (and pay a fee) and then keep on applying. They have solved the problem by moving to Thailand.

Maybe this lady and her family were not aware of these changes.

I started that post ages ago after I read one way back and then had a phone call so many appeared in between. I was not getting at any of the last few posters - sorry!

There maybe 'no going back' roses but there will always be the allure of rejoining - albeit on not such good terms as we have now - once the real 'benefits' of Brexit become apparent!

Excellent post, Welshwife.

That's been the problem for ages, the way the government changes the guidelines to suit itself.

Some EU citizens have been told they have no right to stay here, and are not being given citizenship after filling in 85 page forms. Those forms were not intended for EU citizens. They are for non-EU citizens wanting to stay, like the Singapore woman.
So why are EU citizens being denied the right to live here? We are still part of the EU.

I know a family who have moved from Spain to Ireland, back to Spain, back to Ireland, to Poland, and are now going to Austria. They refuse to come to the UK because of their perception of the way foreigners are seen in this country.
Their perception is correct.

Indeed welshwife and we can be sure that the terms and conditions will not be as we have them now. we will likely have to be in Schengen and in the Euro. This is a slowly unfolding disaster. Getting back to the Singapore born lady that I started the discussion about, yes, perhaps she should have been aware of changes to regulations, but who is? And surely when one has lived somewhere, legally for many years, it is not unreasonable to assume that any subsequent changes to the terms and conditions of residency are not going to be backdated. Ironically, a friend of the family, who voted very strongly for out of Europe ( and believed everything that was said by the loathsome Farage and equally loathsome Murdoch press) now finds her son seperated from his new Indonesian wife who cannot get a visa to live here with her husband, despite them having met while she was living and working legally in Britain. The wife returned to Indonesia to sort out some family business and now cannot get a visa to return and live with her husband. Somehow the family friend didnt think that the immigration controls would apply to her family. She was quite up front about her main reason for voting out; too many foreigners ( her words).

Don't know what to say, GillT. Maybe in future she'll think more carefully?

If it's not to do with Brexit, why are EU citizens also being asked to fill in massive forms for citizenship?

I bet not many people know about this, either, until it applies to them.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/30/scrap-insurance-rule-stay-at-home-parents-eu-tory-mp-sarah-wollaston
Even if you've lived here for 20 years before you have a child, you have to have private insurance when on maternity leave, otherwise you lose your right to permanent residency.

How can foreigners living and working in the UK trust the government when things like this happen?

It makes for difficult evenings as their home as her son has had to go back to living with his parents to try to save up a shedload of money to pay legal fees, and he was a strong remainer too!

I can honestly only think or hope that people did not realise what they were voting for when they voted for Brexit; I shudder to think that anyone voted deliberately for this malicious, vindictive and unfair state of affairs.

I employ an EU national, and she is terrified. I have said I will help her with any form filling, but this situation is disgusting and I feel ashamed of the people who have caused this situation with little or no thought.

I don't think we will ever be going back to the EU Welshwife however, in the future,
If the EU implodes, there well may be a loose coalition between the Northern European countries , a handful this time not the 28 that there were, and it may well work.As it is for the forseeable future though, we will be doing our own deals.
Of course, those who voted Remain don't like it, but although I wouldn't be so rude as to say 'suck it up', everybody will have to get used to the idea.

Gill The British people who voted in the referendum could not do so with the welfare of EU Nationals in mind.They had to do what they thought was best for Britain.