Open Britain - Hard Brexit

If you look back on the threads prior to and after the European Union Referendum there were two trains of thought over the proposition of an EU Army. Some posters would bring the subject up , others would knock the idea down.

Some maintained the EU Army 'was a myth' and basically eluded to anybody who believed it was viable as being taking for a ride and would believe anything they were told. Others equally thought they were the deluded ones in not understanding there was evidence to show it was indeed a viable prospect.

The prospect of an EU Army was raised again on this thread yesterday and today I am noting there is ' a tad ' more acceptance that it isn't 'a myth'.

It is quite possible to discuss things that might be, or that are myths POGS without actually thinking of them as real. Those who believe in the EU army seem to think it is a bad thing I was just pointing out it might have served a useful purpose. I can discuss God and angels as well, doesn't mean I believe in them. Oh and fairies which my GD is currently an expert on.

POGS......like bashing your head against a brick wall sometimes on here isn't it?

trisher

Sorry I can honestly say I haven't a clue as to what you are saying.

Other than stating a myth is a myth , a fact is a fact.

I do not understand the fuss about an EU army. Almost all armed conflicts in recent years have been fought by coalition armies under the leadership of one country: The Balkan Wars, a NATO war I think, including armies from many European countries, led, I think, by Britain, Iraq, both wars, Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan, all commanded by the Americans.

Personally, there is no point of an EU army when nearly every, if not all, EU countries are members of NATO and already that coalition has organised campaigns using forces from member countries under a unified command. Either way an EU army, like a federal Europe is so far down the line it is unlikely to occur in our lifetime and if it happens after that it will be happening in a completely different political and geopolitical situation than we are in today, so we might as well be discussing how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.

"Either way, an EU Army, like a federal Europe is so far down the line it is unlikely to occur in our lifetime". It is happening now, with the merging elements of the Dutch and German Armies under German Command. To date, the merging of the German and Dutch military consists of: last year, German command took over the Dutch 11th Airmobile Brigade. Last month the Dutch 43rd Mechanized Brigade was subsumed into the German 1st Armored Division.
The two countries are sharing the Netherland’s largest war ship, the Karel Doorman, and aim to merge its two naval powers into one unified navy within the next two years.
That leaves the Netherlands with just the 13th Mechanized Brigade to its name, along with special forces and military infrastructure, but the plan is to accelerate towards a merger of these entities within the next few years. There are reports that the Czech Republic has entered talks to bring its army under German control, with the Poles also considering to be part of the plan. If this thing gathers momentum, will it be long before others throw in their lot also? Hmm!

If adjacent EU countries choose to merge armies, I see no problem. There is no obligation on them to do it nor any obligation for other countries to join them. That is not an EU army, and as I said countries already work together under with one agreed country taking command.

What is worse, military forces from different countries merged to form an effective and well equipped defence and peace keeping force or the British version of going it alone with a navy with aircraft carriers but no aircraft and ships they are unable to crew. Providing us with about as much defensive capability as a light sabre.

It's the words 'under German control' isn't it?

Monica

" I see no problem. There is no obligation on them to do it nor any obligation for other countries to join them. That is not an EU army, and as I said countries already work together under with one agreed country taking command."

There is a proposal for an EU Army, do you not accept that?

If the European Union , European Council and European Parliament vote in favour then of course there will be obligations for the 27 countries that form the European Union to become part of it.

It has been the UK that has continued to stave off the idea but Brexit has given the EU the opportunity 'some' have wanted to years..

Our army is under US command for the most part.
Our drones are guided by US soldiers or airmen in the US.
Is that better than or different from an EU army?

Yes

Can you expand on that?

" Despite the claims by Trump and his supporters that he would not be following the hawkish Hillary Clinton into further Middle East interventions, he has actually sent 1000 US troops into Syria in recent weeks, and now looks set to send another 1000.

This is all, of course, without any recourse to Congress let alone to international diplomacy or law, all of which are no doubt deemed to get in the way of his executive actions."

From Stop the War Coalition.
Is it really better to be aligned to trump? When will he expect May to have boots on the ground?

I wonder if Theresa May has seen this.

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/03/15/the-game-theory-of-brexit

I just wish that somebody - anybody would stand up and say they know what they are doing.
Davis has admitted he hasn't a clue
Johnson is busy trying to Commision another Britannia - what!!!!!
Fox is silent
May is firing on all fronts, but is consistently missing her targets.
Hammond - the so called steady ship is anything but, and seems to be holed beneath the water line.

It is beginning to get beyond ridiculous

So will getting all upset and bothered about it do any good?

Good question, Anya.

I don't think I've ever known such strange times.

We all heard the "Down with the global élite" battle cry, but that's precisely what we have as the result of populism.

The "will of the people" and "democracy" have become maligned concepts, because the people are being shut out of decision making processes.

I feel that we're witnessing a train crash (well, several crashes, if you follow what's happening in America and Putin's manoeuvering), but we're powerless to do anything, which brings into question the whole idea of democracy.

I haven't a clue where it's all going, but I just hope that future generations don't look back and ask why the hell the "people" didn't do something.

Anya"So will getting all upset and bothered about it do any good?"

Basically it won't but if enough of the population protest loudly enough they will be noticed and perhaps heeded. The "Brexit" foreseen now was not that foreseen by most LEAVERS last June. Lone voices rarely achieve anything aside from venting off their feelings. But when they stimulate other lone voices they become a collective voice which maybe heeded. If the media then joins in the pressure goes on the establishment to may be do something. So if we don't like Brexit we can either do nothing when the government deludes itself into thinking it's OK or irritate them and others by voicing our views which may not achieve anything practical. However, by protesting, we do make government more aware that we are not happy.

I voted REMAIN but do not agree with more European Federalism, think that we should back home industries when possible (for Merseyside Police to buy Hyundai I30's when Vauxhall Astras are made locally was disgraceful). The French and Germans look after their own industries in the EU, the British sadly do not. That is down to something in our collective mindset and especially the mindset in government. The failings down to EU membership are minimal but a legacy of us not adapting to the modern world and thinking that the world owes us something. On balance we are better off in Europe fighting our corner than outside.

But having a rant on GN isn't going to help is it?

Not GN, because it doesn't have a very big membership, but I think you underestimate the power of social media generally.

I agree with you Cindersdad. There are little things we could all do, but the British mindset seems to be compliant and subservient. Maybe it's because most of us haven't known the upheavals many other countries have experienced and have trusted our governments to do their best for us.

When I was younger and travelled throughout France and Germany, I was quite surprised how politically aware people of my age were. They knew more about how their authorities worked and had fact-based opinions, whereas most British people seemed clueless. Only having two major political parties didn't help, because it encouraged confrontational politics and tribalism.

I think that some of the not buying/using British is to do with needing to show that it is the best bargain/quote from wherever it comes which causes this. Many contracts are given to companies and the resulting mess comes from trying to do things too cheaply.

The British military still does a lot with our drones and also UK and EU intelligence work. We will all lose out if the collaboration in that field stops.

On the radio this morning I was listening about plants we all buy for summer planting - a few years ago there was a bug which affected Bizzie lizzies which is why they disappeared for a while. They are now working on another new bug but I am not sure which plant it affects as DH spoke to me and I missed the name ! They are hoping that the Brexit upset will not stop the European co-operation with this as the bugs cross borders easily.

It might have been surfinia (hanging petunia), which were also affected by a bug. New plants couldn't be created from cuttings, so new seed had to be collected. Plant bugs don't respect national borders, so co-operation is essential.

Maybe it won't, but not sure why we should be silent about it. We can see what's ahead, and maybe if enough of us shout a warning the message will get to the driver.

There is absolutely no reason for silence. Brexiteers have proved to be very bad winners. After eight months, all they seem to come up with is "We won, you lost. Suck it up!", which isn't good enough. That's how bullies behave. There's been enough time to come up with some kind of outline plan and for this to be communicated to the "people", whose will is allegedly being enacted. It's particularly worrying that the people in charge of this plan contradict each other. The "people" really aren't that stupid or complacent.

"The peoples will" is being used as shorthand for " shut up"

It isn't good enough, and the parliamentary remainers have shown no spine in challenging this attitude.