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Brexit - the end of the beginning - the negotiations begin

(309 Posts)
JessM Sat 29-Apr-17 13:57:34

The 27 nations agreed on these principles. It took them a minute to do so.
Lots of food for thought. And not much scope for tub thumping tough negotiating rhetoric is there?
Lots to chew over here but not much wriggle room for UK.

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2017/04/29-euco-brexit-guidelines/

Fitzy54 Mon 01-May-17 09:09:11

WW- Just had a look at A50 and I think I see what you are getting at, and why the UK feel they can give as much input as they like. A50 says that if a state decides to leave, the Union will negotiate terms in line with guidelines set out by the EU Council at that time. The Council has set up guidelines, which include the idea of phased negotiations. However, there is nothing in A50 which makes it clear that the other party is in any way bound by these guidelines. To my mind, the wording implies only that the guidelines set out the negotiating position of the EU. All just supposition on my part though.

durhamjen Mon 01-May-17 09:11:50

I had heard that Welshwife. Maybe you should read the Guardian and not the Times, Fitzy.

Or here.

ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/the-article-50-negotiations/

thatbags Mon 01-May-17 09:15:27

Thanks for your input, fitzy. Always worth reading. Here's the text of that article. I particularly like the reference to the "apocalyptic rhetoric" from Brussels and the calm statement that what Juncker has said about different galaxies is "overblown". Now there's a surprise, not.

The article
"The EU member states are 27, and yet they manage to speak with one voice. Minutes into their meeting on Saturday, European heads of state and government agreed their Brexit negotiation position. Britain is only one, yet the government is struggling to convey a message to Brussels that does not get lost in translation. EU sources have told The Times that they hear one thing from civil servants, then another from Theresa May. That is concerning.

Last Wednesday the prime minister sat down to dinner with Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, and Michel Barnier, chief Brexit negotiator. They were confounded by an apparent volte-face from the UK on the sequencing of talks. Oliver Robbins, the mandarin overseeing Brexit, had reportedly offered assurances that the “withdrawal settlement”, covering issues like Britain’s divorce bill and citizens’ rights, could be addressed before the start of trade talks. At dinner Mrs May is reported to have said otherwise.

EU diplomats also say that they are confused over the roles assigned to the British negotiating team. “We do not know who to call,” one diplomat said. Downing Street claims that there is nothing to be confused about, explaining that the prime minister will lead the negotiations, supported by the secretary of state and senior officials. EU negotiators could be forgiven for thinking that clears up little. Mrs May made a promising start to negotiations with her letter to Donald Tusk, president of the European Council. Now she has been tripped up by a failure to be clear on mechanics and process. It should not be that difficult to explain.

The gritty detail of negotiations is likely to be handled by neither David Davis nor Mrs May, but civil servants. Mr Davis’s job should be to direct his diplomats on anything of a political, not technical, nature. He will make his decisions in the knowledge that he holds his position only at Mrs May’s pleasure, and must retain her confidence to survive. Mrs May surely appreciates that she cannot be in the room for every word of the negotiation, but the last word will always be hers.

If mixed messages from Britain are dismaying, the apocalyptic rhetoric from Brussels should be taken with a pinch of salt. Mr Juncker has weighed in with his characteristic brio, accusing Mrs May of living in a “different galaxy”. He claims that “no deal” is now more likely than agreement.

That is overblown. Even the two disagreements that seem most intractable can be resolved. The first is over money. Britain will almost certainly pay something to the EU to cover financial commitments already made. The EU thinks that the sum should be big. The UK thinks that it should be small. Neither side has budged on this yet, but no wonder: talks have barely begun.

The second sticking point is sequencing. The UK — or Mrs May, at least — says that trade talks should run at the same time as exit talks. The EU says that the divorce deal, including the bill, must be settled first. In time, both sides are likely to row back a little. The first day of talks will not be about trade. It is also unnecessary, however, to proscribe any such talks until billions of euros have changed hands. Negotiators could perfectly well agree a set of principles for the calculation of the divorce bill first, then delegate the spreadsheet fiddling to technocrats while pressing on with talks about the future. Compromises will be possible — so long as the government is able to make its position clear."

durhamjen Mon 01-May-17 09:26:20

If May is still insisting on using EU citizens living here as a bargaining chip by the time of the election, I would imagine their partners and families who have a vote will not be voting Tory. 3 million of them.

durhamjen Mon 01-May-17 09:32:36

Article 50, from the ukandeu link.

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by theCouncil, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

Quite clear that UK cannot take part in any negotiations concerning it, and that we can ask to rejoin if we want to.

durhamjen Mon 01-May-17 09:48:38

www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-04-25/what-are-the-key-brexit-issues-and-where-do-the-u-k-and-eu-stand

maddyone Mon 01-May-17 09:50:28

It strikes me when reading some of the comments on here that there are some gransnetters on here (and perhaps others elsewhere) who sound very much as if they would approve of the UK getting a poor deal from the EU, so certain are they that the EU is the only way to go. Britain voted out (by a small majority) and we have to get on with it now and hope our negotiators are able to secure a good deal for us all.

maddyone Mon 01-May-17 09:55:30

And no one should be called bigoted and brain dead because they chose to vote out. It's simply rude.

durhamjen Mon 01-May-17 09:57:11

Read Article 50, Maddyone. We can ask to rejoin if we want to. It says so. You may not like that idea, but I'd rather have that safety valve than nothing.

Welshwife Mon 01-May-17 09:59:32

There is and article showing leaked notes on the dinner last week in Downing Street. I saw it early this morning and it came up as a list - however I have looked again to find a link but can only come up with one which takes you to Twitter and a series of tweets. FAZ is the account if anyone wants to read it.

DDavis was annoying May by the looks of it.

ninny Mon 01-May-17 10:02:40

So true maddyone, some posters seem to love everything about the EU and EU migrants and despise everything British and the ordinary British working man/woman.

MaizieD Mon 01-May-17 10:06:17

You are so far off the truth, ninny, that it's laughable.

maddyone Mon 01-May-17 10:07:09

Why do you assume I don't like the idea daphne? I didn't say I am pro remain it leave, I commented on what I have read on gransnet, and said we do now need to accept and get on with it. You have no idea which way I voted as I haven't said anything about it, I simply believe it would be better to hope for a good deal given the circumstances.

maddyone Mon 01-May-17 10:07:39

pro remain OR leave

Fitzy54 Mon 01-May-17 10:15:44

DJ exactly what I read. Key words at the start of clause 2. "In light of [the guidelines] the Union shall negotiate with the state ..
We have no say in the guidelines (that's clear from the later text) but the claus 2 wording, to my mind, says that it guides the Union negotiating team. The guidelines don't apply to the other negotiating party - so we have in no way signed up to allowing the EU to set the process and agenda with no input from us.

Fitzy54 Mon 01-May-17 10:20:50

DJ I do stick my nose into the Guardian from time to time - I think I sent you a link yesterday. As I've said before though, it's a bit one sided for my taste. I would recommend the Times!

Yorkshiregel Mon 01-May-17 11:27:41

Cannot wait for all this to be over and sorted. I hope Mrs May does not do a U-Turn and let the EU take more advantage of our generosity than they already have done. All these Remoaners need to get behind the country. We are LEAVING! If they do not support Mrs May then the world will think us weak so we should now all gather together and try and make this a success. If not then our families will suffer for you waiting to say 'I told you so' Britain has a lot to offer. The EU should stop being spiteful and realise that if they do not then we will just walk away and they will be the losers.

Yorkshiregel Mon 01-May-17 11:34:13

Just wanted to add that I do not understand why people think it is the end of the world as we know it. We will still be able to holiday in Europe, you can still live, work and study in Europe. We will still trade with Europe but in a different way ie we will trade with individual countries not as a 'block'. You do not really believe that Germany will stop selling cars to Britain do you? They export a lot to us. More than we do to them. That is only one example. I LOVE Europe and the people of European countries. We holiday there all the time and I have family living there. We are NOT LEAVING EUROPE just leaving the EU which is an entirely different matter. As Churchill said 'We are of Europe but we do not want to be ruled by Europe'. Our efforts now should be to support our PM and get the best deal we can for our children's sake.

durhamjen Mon 01-May-17 11:39:07

Haven't got a PM at the moment to support, Yorkshiregel. Have you forgotten she called an election?

johnofwhixall Mon 01-May-17 11:42:19

Worth a thought from the FT

Ford has warned that the competitiveness of the UK’s auto industry will be put “at risk” if Britain leaves the EU without a deal that provides access to the market, in its starkest warning over the future of British production yet.

And what about Nissan owned by Japan and by France
Sunderland had better hope and pray that any deal is in the interests of overseas share holders

GadaboutGran Mon 01-May-17 11:49:00

Radicalnan please don't fill the Channel tunnel yet. I'm in it!

johnofwhixall Mon 01-May-17 12:18:32

course they will be prepared to sell to you the question id how much are you prepared to pay, because once the spoilt brat conservative politicians start to play fast and loose the tariffs will bite and whilst it'll never impact on the rich kids the ordinary folk will end up paying the bill -- unless of course your a rich kids your sen yorkshiregal

Fitzy54 Mon 01-May-17 12:26:23

Who are the rich kids and who are the ordinary folk John? What about the spoilt brat Labour and LD politicians - are we letting them off the hook? Sorry i should have asked what you mean by spoilt, and what you mean by a brat? Just that some of us don't have your very keen insight and clear minded wisdom.

durhamjen Mon 01-May-17 12:48:44

Labour and Libdems will not be involved in the negotiations, though, Fitzy.
They might be on the committees but May and the three Brexiteers have the final say, and I'm not even sure if the Brexiteers have that much of a say.

Fitzy54 Mon 01-May-17 12:58:45

True enough. So she is the spoilt brat?