Jews and racism

trisher Please do not patronise me, I do know that everything that's written in the gospels, not to mention other parts of the Bible, is not proven fact. I also know that Christ said 'Love thy neighbour' which brings us back to the main point being discussed in this thread, which is antisemitism. It brings us back because it is clear from the recent racial/religious attacks, and apparent unease of some groups who feel uncomfortable here, that everyone in Britain (and other places too) clearly does not love their neighbour.

As to whether Christ was vegetarian or not, it matters not one jot!

Trisher - you raise some interesting points. However, I must point out that you are incorrect in your perception of Palestinian mistreatment in Israel. Though Israel is far from perfect, like any country, defending oneself when attacked is not aggression, but response. Having lived there for 19 years I've never encountered anyone Jewish who wanted to attack Arabs - (many Jews and Arabs are friends). The odd time this has happened, the vast majority of Israeli Jews and the government have condemned it, with many Jews visiting the mourning tents of the families. In my view, the important thing is people's reaction - do they pass out sweets and fire weapons in the air, or do they condemn it? The latter is definitely the case.

Trisher - you raise some interesting points. However, I must point out that you are incorrect in your perception of Palestinian mistreatment in Israel. Though Israel is far from perfect, like any country, defending oneself when attacked is not aggression, but response. Having lived there for 19 years I've never encountered anyone Jewish who wanted to attack Arabs - (many Jews and Arabs are friends). The odd time this has happened, the vast majority of Israeli Jews and the government have condemned it, with many Jews visiting the mourning tents of the families. In my view, the important thing is people's reaction - do they pass out sweets and fire weapons in the air, or do they condemn it? The latter is definitely the case.

Actually maddyone, whether or not Jesus was a vegetarian matters a lot to some of us. I don't see why this is not a valid question as diet is a key feature in many religions. It's not very kind of others to ridicule durhamjen for raising this. But then not being very kind seems to be a speciality on gransnet these days.

It was also not very wise to post that Jesus was an Essene without any scrap of evidence or proof.

I notice durhamjen hasn't returned to back up her claim, but Elegran's explanation is fine by me.

So is it not racist to stop a Palestinian mother going to hospital with her new born baby because she hasn't got the correct paperwork? Is it not racist to restrict people to certain areas? I am not saying Rosyapple189 that every Jewish person living in Israel is racist I am saying that there have been measures put in place which are racist and which have resulted in Palestinian people having less human rights than other members of society and this fuels the racist views of some people. I know that some of these measures have been instituted because the Israelis fear attacks, but all of history shows that no measures, however draconian, can fully subdue a people and that violence begets violence. The only way forward is negotiation and discourse and if Israel would begin by at least granting some human rights and complying with the UN mandates there would at least be hope.

apologies for posting twice!

Some good points again, Trisher and there has been Palestinian aggression as well as Israeli, but this thread is about UK racism/religionism, not Israeli racism.

Trisher, you won't believe me, but many reports aren't true. Gazans and Palestinians regularly receive treatment in Israeli hospitals, including the leader of Hamas' own family. Israeli Arabs are appointed to many positions, e.g. Heads of hospitals, Supreme Court Judges, MKs (MPs). There's nowhere in Israel Arab can't go, the reverse is true, there are areas Jews can't go in their own country. Israel more than complies with UN mandates. Because the UN have large voting blocks of Arab countries with South American countries, they vote in what they wish, however ludicrous.

But Elegran do you not think that some people are seduced into believing there is a Jewish conspiracy when they see the inaction of governments to deal with the problem. I am not suggesting there is such a thing just that not dealing with it leads to more anti-semitism. It's no good looking at the problem here and agreeing it is abhorrent if we don't discuss possible causes and solutions.

nightowl, why does it matter to Jen? She has said many times she is an atheist , it may matter to her to prove she is right but no more than that, certainly not for any other reason , well it has caused a drift away from the topic - Jews and racism- so possibly this is why it may matter to her

There is no solution, unless Israel is handed to the palastians or Palestine is handed to the Israelies. Hamas, Corbyns friends , were formed to bring about the former

Even if there is one report of human rights abuse which is true (and I'm sure there are many more) Rosyapple189surely you will agree it is one too many? Or do you really think that giving a few Palestinians positions of authority is the same as giving human rights to all. I posted about a mother separated from her baby.
Independent UN reports have highlighted the lack of health care and infant mortality in Gaza
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/10/gaza-infant-mortality-rate-rises-for-first-time-in-53-years-un-study-reveals
It isn't ludicrous to ask a country to stop expanding into another country's territory. It is what the UN is for. And if Israel has as you said "More than complied with UN mandates" It has presumably with drawn from the territories it occupied?

But Israel left Gaza (which it had won in a war foisted upon it by its neighbours, so was entitled to it) in 2005, since which time it has been under the control of Hamas. So it's Hamas' responsibility to provide adequate health care for its citizens, not Israel's. Israel is doing them a favour by taking in some cases. The same scenario of winning territory in the so-called West Bank in the same war applies. So neither territory was/is occupied. In addition, when it comes to it, these two territories were part of the land to establish the State of Israel by the Balfour Declaration. After the 1948 War of Independence, Gaza was (incorrectly) given into Egypt's custodianship, and the 'West Bank' into Jordan's. Custody - not ownership.There never was a Palestinian State.
A true case of human rights abuse is not right, but many are invented. And any cases are investigated by the judiciary and/or the army - if found to be true, the perpetrator is punished. Sadly cases of human rights abuses occur everywhere in the world.
'A few positions of authority'? are you kidding? there are many more than a few, as there is equal opportunity in Israel. I gave you a few examples, there are so many more. Were Israel truly racist, there wouldn't be any such positions at all.

Essenes:
The community at Qumran is thought to have been made up of Essenes, who were considered to be vegetarian by Pliny the elder, Josephus and Philo of Alexandria. They were Pythagorean in their beliefes and habits, a community sharing all worldly goods, ascetic and meatless, a pacific community with a beliefe in the transmigration of souls.
They also referred to themselves as Nazarenes and keepers of the covenant.
The finds from Qumran and Nag Hammadi indicate the possibility of another Jesus, quite different from the one we find in the Pauline version, a Jesus who had connections with sects which were not meat- eating. Some of the Gnostic literature predates the Gospels, and the Jesus revealed there is far more psychologically subtle and in many ways nearer to Buddha. If this Jesus had been publicised, praised and believed in, the history of the relationship between humankind and animals in the last two thousand years would probably have been vastly different. Imagine a Christian religion which had colonised half the world and was basically vegetarian and akin to Buddhism."

From Vegetarianism: A history by Colin Spencer.
Chapter five, if anyone's interested.
You can look up the Essenes yourselves if you want to. Essenes are jews, by the way, so it's not diverting. There may be Essenes in this country, but I don't know any.
The Virgin Mary was an Essene, as was Joseph.

Very interesting durhamjen and not something I knew anything about. I will be looking at this.

Sorry if this derails the thread, I have no intention of doing so.

Rosyapple189 Very interesting to read the perspective of someone who's actually lived in Israel. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

So the Jews who took part in the survey are being punished because of the actions of Israel , the Jews killed Christ and the far right are hitting back , does this not mean the far right are fighting for palastine ?

Primrose, thanks for your comment. Living there one gets to see and get a 'feel' for what goes on.

I'll risk derailing by continuing briefly along the Essene/ Jesus line. Jesus/Joshua/Yeshwa was a common name at that time and place. There being a vegetarian Jesus (however written) among the Essenes is no more proofthat it was "our" Jesus than that mention of Jeremy is proof that Jeremy Hunt/Paxman/Clarkson is the leader of the Labour Party.

Quite!

But it's an interesting line of thought all the same. I'm always willing to read more!

How sad to find someone who equates one or two positions of importance as equivalent to granting human rights to a whole peoples. As for Gaza, there is a blockade on the country by the Israelis, it includes medical supplies so of course the people of Gaza have not been able to set up their own health provision. I am shocked that anyone would support the treatment that has been meted out to the people of Gaza by the Israelis. I take it when you were living there Rosyapple189 you were not living in Gaza or the occupied territories.
I also noted that you referred to the Palestinian people as "Arabs" they are Palestinians and have a right to be called such. Just as the people of Israel have right to be known as Israelis and not referred to as "Jews"
Annie you really aren't interested in proper discussion are you?

Why does it matter whether Jesus was a vegetarian or not, is it relevant to something?!
I think we should be very careful before condemning one country out of hand, particularly when it's very existence is an anathema to so many people, most of whom would be happy to see Israel at the bottom of the ocean along with its population simply because?!!!! How on earth can Israel begin to make peace with surrounding country's who are and have been hellbent on destroying it come what may from day 1 of its inception?!!,