I love Sarah Champion!

No Trisher, it was a comment on your posts

Interesting, isn't it, there are only left wing, probably very left wing posters, and just a few thank goodness, that are stubbornly still saying that Sarah Champion was wrong.
They are putting their brand of politics before any thing else. No matter how important, because of some misguided 'right on' Corbyn inspired principles.
Team Corbyn are afraid of losing the Muslim vote, it's as simple and as awful as that.

Was ever thus lemongrove

So lemongrove will you please explain to me how one article blaming Pakistani men will stop girls being abused anywhere? How you propose to change the prejudices of any man? And how cutting social workers, police and care workers, creating more and worse poverty, and excluding more children from schools will help stop children being abused and bring more criminals to justice?

trisher it's a start! More articles and focusing attention on this subject would be a good thing.Those communities need to take a good hard look at themselves, admit it happens a lot, think about why it does, and talk about the hatefullness of those crimes to men to attend the mosque after the prayers are over.
Officials have been so afraid of being called racists that they turned a blind eye to many things in the past and the very recent past, it has to stop.
That doesn't mean that the real evil deeds going on by Pakistani men or of Pakistani heritage should be let off the hook so to speak, by lily livered politicians.
These girls have been let down by the Establishment but the real culprits are the men themselves and the Muslim communities who do not care to examine this awful problem.

I remember an old supervisor of mine telling me once:-

"I've sat at this reception for 20 odd years and I have heard and watched history repeat itself so many times after a while you realise nothing really ever changes much".

I feel like that is true of the threads and views of posters regarding Rotherham and the subject of Asian Grooming as we have been talking about it from time to time for '3 years' at least.

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/a1209822-Rotherham-Child-Abuse

As for Sarah Champion I remember she was spoken of ages ago and whilst I applaud her of late I remember she was not always as direct about the subject as I posted this back in 2015.

POGS Fri 06-Feb-15 12:50:18
" I have just watched Labour Rotherham MP Sarah Champion on Daily Politics.

I was not surprised to see her trying to deflect any responsibility for what happened away from the Labour Party. Unbelievable!

I thought she was a little more 'contrite' on Wednesday when The Secretary of State was announcing the Rotherham councils cabinet resignation. I suggest she would do better to show the people of Rotherham Labour take responsibility for it's actions."
--

Sarah Champion has joined a list of Labour MP's such as Anne Cryer , David Blunkett, Jack Straw , Simon Danczuk who also spoke out about the matter and like them Sarah Champion was turned on by her own party for speaking the truth.

I would have thought Sarah Champion should be congratulated but then I thought that would have applied to Ann Cryer too and look how she was treated by her party.

Sarah Champion has realised the extent of the problem and so did Ann Cryer (Keighley MP) and they have both dared to drag this problem kicking and screaming into the daylight.The Leadership of the Labour Party has not wanted to know, and we all know why.

Simple solutions from posters with black and white views on a complex subject ( and black and white has nothing to do with race in this context).

My views are nothing to do with my politics, nothing to do with political correctness, but formed from working with vulnerable children who have been abused. It is easy to sit on a computer and bravely cry ' the problem lies with Asian/ Muslim men' and think you've sorted it. Believe me you a million miles away from even understanding the problem let alone sorting it if that's your standpoint.

Why, lemongrove?

Nightowl

It is also doing nobody any favours to distance a 'substantiated' series of cases of 'grooming' from the truth.

If this was a thread about politicians, Church of England , Catholic Priests etc. then it would be equally as insensitive to try and deflect the facts by saying it is also a problem within this , that and tuther group .

You say :-

"It is easy to sit on a computer and bravely cry ' the problem lies with Asian/ Muslim men' and think you've sorted it. Believe me you a million miles away from even understanding the problem let alone sorting it if that's your standpoint."

It is not bravely crying the problem lies with Asian /Muslim men and thinking it is sorted. It should however be accepted that 'in these particular cases ' it is a problem that lies with some Asian/Muslim men . Thankfully some Asian commentators have had the decency to acknowledge there is an isuue to be discussed not swept under the carpet.

I note one of your posts on the Rotherham Child Abuse thread says this:-

nightowl Wed 27-Aug-14 12:20:56

"I think the 'cowards who avoided investigating and tackling these offenders' were at a high level. The report describes how members of staff at ground level were confused and even afraid to refer to issues of race. The 'Risky Business' project manager was instructed not to refer to the race of the perpetrators when delivering training. Other staff members reported that they were instructed by their managers 'to be cautious' about referring to the ethnicity of the perpetrators.

Having worked in a number of local authority child protection teams I can verify that it is common for staff to feel uncertain and uneasy about what they can and can't say about issues to do with ethnicity in reports, in meetings, and in peer group supervision. This has been going on for more than 20 years and is not a healthy situation.

Of course most perpetrators of sexual abuse are white males, and most abuse happens within the family. However CSE is different and needs specialist teams to tackle it. We do no one any favours if we overlook the fact that there may in some cases, and some areas, be a race element that could be specific to that area. I fail to see what is wrong with acknowledging that and in using that knowledge to work with all communities to tackle the problem. I completely agree that the worst prejudice at work here is sexism and misogyny which affects females of all ethnic backgrounds."

How I agreed with your post on that thread when you acknowledged , to repeat your own words,

" We do no one any favours if we overlook the fact that there may in some cases, and some areas, be a race element that could be specific to that area. I fail to see what is wrong with acknowledging that and in using that knowledge to work with all communities to tackle the problem. "

This issue of child abuse is not about Asian men, Muslim men, Catholic men, white men, black men, etc. etc.- it is about some men.

On the BBC Sunday morning discussion programme a couple of weeks ago the Rotherham case was discussed. The Chief Prosecutor agreed that Asian men were predominantly the perpetrators of these sorts of on-street sexual grooming crimes. However, he pointed out that non-Asian men predominate in using different methods. They tend to take jobs in institutions, such as hospitals, care homes, young offender centres, children's clubs, boarding schools, etc., where they are generally perceived to be trustworthy and where they know they, with very little oversight, will have access to children.

I accept that some Asian men have a mysogynistic view of women and need to be made fully aware that entering into any sort of sexual relationship with a child, i.e. a young person below 16 years of age, is rape - and that, in any event, using violence and intimidation against women or children is illegal. I would have thought the very best way to bring this message home would be to immediately and properly investigate and prosecute these men. Instead, the abuse of these children - which occurred over a number of years and was in plain sight of the police officers - was completely ignored. At least one girl made a statement to the police saying she was being terrorised and raped on a regular basis but nothing was done. Families who pleaded with the police to do something were told that nothing could be done - the sexual activity was "by consent" and it was a "lifestyle choice". Professor Jay commented that it appeared that some police officers were unaware of the law - that a child under 16 could not give consent to a sexual relationship and any sexual act with a child would be liable to prosecution for rape.

In the Rochdale abuse case, there is a similar story. Manchester Evening News reported:

"Rochdale sexual health worker Sara Rowbotham told an inquiry that all the girls had been ‘treated appallingly by protective services’.

“We were making referrals from 2004, very explicit referrals ?.." she said.

“It was unfortunate that it was about attitudes towards teenagers. It was absolute disrespect that vulnerable young people did not have a voice.

“They were overlooked, they were discriminated against.”

"After the trial’s conclusion, there were public apologies from the police, the council and prosecutors for failing the victims.

"There was a string of different inquiries into what went wrong. Running though them is repeated mentions of the fact that many in authority believed that the girls had brought the abuse on themselves.

"A Serious Case Review published in 2013 concluded that the authorities 'struggled to empathise' with the girls, partly because they were from poor backgrounds, giving them a 'skewed picture of their behaviour'. The report added that professionals repeatedly said the victims had it 'in their power' to stop the abuse 'suggesting this was something they could choose not to do'.

Despite written evidence of these remarks in effect blaming girls for being physically and sexually terrorised, some of the police and local authority officers involved said they did not pursue the matter in case they were called racists.

Can that same argument be used in the case of the member of Lost Prophets who continued abusing infants and young children even though his girlfriend and other people had notified the police - and given photographic and text message evidence - of what was happening?

What about the Kincora case in Northern Ireland, which was highlighted many years ago but has only recently been properly investigated:

"Police were guilty of a “catalogue of failures” over the abuse of boys at a Belfast care home run by a paedophile ring, a comprehensive report into child mistreatment across Northern Ireland has found.

"The report, released on Friday, also accused the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland of ignoring repeated warnings about a serial paedophile, Fr Brendan Smyth, who sexually assaulted and raped dozens of young victims.

"At least 29 boys were sexually abused by McGrath, the Kincora housemaster, and others at the home. ....

"The retired judge Sir Anthony Hart, who chaired the inquiry, said if the RUC had carried out a proper investigation into Kincora many of the victims might have been spared.

"Public hearings were held into 22 institutions across Northern Ireland which were run by the state, local authorities, the Catholic church, the Church of Ireland, and other voluntary organisations. "

The fact is, as the Telegraph reported last year, there is (and may always have been) child abuse on a massive scale and it is not confined to one particular group:

"At first sight, the figures are jaw-dropping: police in England and Wales are preparing to deal with 30,000 new cases of child sexual abuse.

"..... Justice Lowell Goddard is in charge of 13 investigations involving a number of institutions, including the Church, Westminster, the borough of Lambeth and a detention centre in Durham, along with allegations of child sexual exploitation in Rochdale, Devon, Cornwall, Oxford and Rotherham.

That is what Sarah Champion is arguing, in the particular case of the Rotherham grooming gangs, is not the point and it is a point that she has covered.

Her point is that arrests and prosecutions were not done in the Rotherham case (and Oxford and Newcastle) because the men in these cases were nearly all of British Pakistani extraction targetting white girls and the 'authorities' were too afraid of being called racist to say so and to do what they should have done.

The fact that she was made to resign because of her 'racist' remarks proves her point. She is not a racist.

And I admire her guts in saying what she thinks needs saying in spite of being made to resign her front bench position.

What I know some GNers won't 'get' is that I think one can admire someone's guts in this sort of position even if one doesn't agree with what they're saying.

As it happens I do agree with what she's saying: there is a cultural difference in some AsianMuslim communities in the attitude to women. I expect I agree partly because I have had direct experience of it myself. This does not invalidate the points about it being some men in the whole global set of men who groom and rape female children.

But I think a lot of people think it is racist to say there are cultural differences in attitudes to anything. And that is the problem SC is highlighting because it sometimes, with devastating effect, means justice is not done. She is saying: face the truth.

I think most on this thread agree Baggs all except the small core of Corbyn supporters.If those that don't agree are actually Conservative, Lib Dem voters or Labour supporters that don't think much of Team Corbyn then I apologise for thinking so.

So it is political, whatever some may say.

lemongrove This has absolutely nothing to do with supporting Corbyn. Why not refer to what I said and to the comments that Jay and other people made regarding the lack of will to protect these girls and the sheer incompetence demonstrated in these and many other cases involving vulnerable children - instead of trying to score political points?

In fact the point of view put forward by you and Baggs is, I feel sure, a populist one, as can be seen from this thread and most media and online commentary. In my view, I and those who express concern at the sort of language that Champion used are well aware that in doing so they will be pilloried and will be accused of being apologists for rapist.

I and those with my opinion have not implied that the girls were deserving of their treatment - the reports said that appeared to be the attitude of some of the authorities.

I recall quite clearly people on other threads saying that girls getting drunk, wearing revealing clothes and behaving provocatively were foolish and inviting trouble. I and several others argued very strongly against that belief and I object to my views being represented in that way.

I agree, Eloethan. Facts show that 100% of those people in jail for sexually abusing children as individuals rather than in a gang are white males.

Sarah Champion was not made to resign. She resigned because she realised that she had said the wrong thing about Pakistanis in Rotherham. The majority of Pakistanis in Rotherham do not rape and abuse white girls.

Well remembered POGS

I stand by everything I said on that earlier thread. I do not feel it is inconsistent with my posts on this thread. I do feel my comments have been taken out of context on this thread. I absolutely defend the need to look at racial/ religious/ cultural and other factors in organised child abuse. I think I said so earlier in this thread. I also absolutely support the need for proper support and safeguarding for the girls (and boys) involved. They are, after all, the group I have worked with rather than the abusers.

I still say that we have to look at the structural and institutional barriers that prevent staff from speaking out. Yes, it is true that it has been difficult in local authorities to raise some issues where race is a factor for fear of being accused of racism. But that is not the only barrier and I think misogyny and sexism lies at the heart of this and cuts across all communities and society as a whole. And it doesn't mean that staff haven't spoken out, just that they haven't always been heard for many reasons more complicated than 'political correctness'.

My objection to Sarah Champion's words in this instance is that they are clumsy, inaccurate, and inflammatory. As an intelligent woman with a good understanding of the issues she should have known better. I was not very impressed by her attempt to distance herself by saying her article was altered by the Sun. If so, why has she not published the original article as she wrote it. It never helps to dissemble in order to get yourself out of a tricky situation.

That said, I think she would do well right now to keep her head down and work with all her constituents, and in parliament, to make sure this matter continues to receive the attention it deserves. Instead of which she seems to want to keep on becoming the message rather than the messenger.

In my view, I see corbyn devotion so like thatcher devotion , defended , defend,defend.

You always have to twist things, don't you, Annie. How sad.

Not sad at all durhamjen simply true! Defend, defend defend.
Eloethan so you are not a Corbyn supporter then?
Or durhamjen or trisher ?
Otherwise, yes, it is about politics.

Or nightowl come to that!?

She should just keep her head down should she?
Unbelievable!!

Regrettably I find your posts sad Jen

Are my posts not allowed to be blunt? After all, I'm from Yorkshire, just as much as Sarah Champion.
She has admitted she should not have said what she did. I agree with her, as a fellow Yorkshire woman.
I also agree with nightowl that the best way for Sarah Champion to rehabilitate herself is to work hard in parliament to get what she wants.

Rehabilitate herself? Corbyn speak for - toe the Corbyn line ?