Labour Party and anti semitism

Annie I don't think I said this:
"Jews have a sense of security with trump then you spesk of his wealth to be no different to the mural wall painting,"
I don't know what this wallpainting is, as I wrote earlier.
I'm sending you a pm.

Margaret Hodge has children and grandchildren all born in the U.K as was Margaret , you Fennel are calling three generations of U.K born citizens - incomers . I assume you class all British citizens whose ancestors came from another country - incomers

Fennel I am really upset, I never expected such a post from you , best you and I say no more to each other

Its surely impossible to defend what this man said, or the bullying manner in which he said it. Listening to the tape made me cringe. It felt like we were back in time when Militant members like Derek Hatton harranged, bellowed and bullied their way through various meetings. This man was speaking at an NEC meeting. It doesn't give me any confidence that a safe environment exists which encourages those who aren't shouting bullies to express their views.

I've no doubt that some members of the Jewish community are what can be called right wing, even be supporters of Mr T. None of that in any way excuses this man's comments. He has apologised and self referred for diversity training. You simply couldn't make it up. Yvette Cooper has suggested he withdraws his candidacy for the NEC.

trisher, I may have misheard but the radio news I listened to as I was driving earlier this evening, suggested the tape came from the Jewish Chronical.

It will be very interesting to see what JC does in response to this latest 'unpleasant' incident

As well as what he said which angered me, yet again Corbyn sat listening to him just as he did when the .momentum chap reduced Ruth Smeeth to tears, he remains silent .

Yes very Derek Hatton and Co,

Just picked up on this thread. Not sure if I should say something or not. The last few pages have made very disturbing reading. Anniebach, I share your view.

The subject is just too important not to continue to discuss it. This is from Guardian reader responding to anti-Semitic charges levelled at the Labour Party.

Those of us who have long enjoyed close relationships with Jewish friends and colleagues always make it clear that our trenchant criticism is of Israel and not of the Jewish people. Indeed, we are often frustrated with the damage that the conflation of the two does to that relationship. I look forward to the time when very different Israeli governments treat Palestinians differently, and that it will be possible to be a member of both one’s party’s Friends of Palestine and its Friends of Israel.
I have withheld his name.
Leeds
www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/30/labour-antisemitism-and-criticism-of-israel

The basis of the anti-Semitism at the root of the Labour Party stems from the Labour Party’s support of Palestine, and therefore Palestinian’s. In this response in the Guardian the writer believes that he can hate the State of Israel because of the way the Israeli Government treat’s Palestinians, without associating the Israeli Jews with the action of their Government ergo he does not hate Jewish people is what he is basically is saying.
The writer also say’s he is a member of the Friends of Palestine and would hope one day, it would be possible to be a member of Friends of Israel as well only of course when the Israeli Government ‘treats Palestinians differently”.

Has anybody got views on if it is possible to disassociate the people of a Country from the views of their elected Government, in this case the State of Israel from it’s citizens? Likewise if it were possible to disassociate one State: Israel from it’s citizens, it should follow that the Palestinians can therefore be disassociated from the actions of the Palestinian Government.

There is something that at first one would like to agree with here, then on closer study and more thought, I realised that both the Palestinians and the Israeli’s have democractic systems for electing their Governments, and presumably both Country’s Politicians run for election on a mandate, ergo the people by majority support their Governments policy in both Israel and Palestine. My view is the two cannot be separated, Government from the people who voted for them. What do others think?

Surely no one can defend antisemetic views by aiming the hate at the Isreali State and Government without offending it’s citizens. Surely the two are indivisible.

There is a lot said against those who support the State of Israel be they Jewish or not. When one offends the State of Israel being a Jewish State, surely that must be anti-Semitism. The offence therefore is not contained within the State of Israel it offends Jewish people who are citizens of other Country’s as well, surely.

This sort of very public criticism of Israel by high profile Politicians, encourages a different level of ideologist to raise their voice, it cannot be responsible behaviour from any Political Party to make it ‘acceptable’ to single out any group. race, religion or culture, in this case creating antagonism against Israel and it's people must be antisemetic.

The argument of the writer to the Guardian is attempting to justify anti-Semitism by saying that it is aimed only at the Government of Israel, that is attempting to justify the unjustifiable in my view. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby when criticising Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party said that “ Delegitimising the state of Israel is anti-Semitic.”

The other issue that Anniebach bring's to our attention is equally insidious in it's undertones, that of approval by silence. Approval by selective hearing. Approval by not taking action. I know from previous post's that Anniebach has a long association and first hand experience of these Politicians, and no doubt fears for the future direction of the Corbyn Labour Party in the dark underbelly where anti-semetic views are harboured and if not supported, certainly not disapproved of as strongly, or as openly as they ought to be. Those who speak up being sidelined, deselected sends out such a fearful message to keep other's silent.

I am not anti semitic but under the present description of anti-semitism I would be defined as such.

I do not believe it was right for Europe and the US to champion and enable the creation of the state of Israel, which involved the displacement and subjugation of the Palestinians already living there, and the theft of their land and property.

The injustice cannot be undone now as many Israelis have only known Israel as their home and naturally wish to remain there . But it is not too late for Israel to abandon its racist policies.

The UN General Assembly in the 70's defined apartheid as “any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country, including the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence.” The definition also includes “the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group.”

South African anti-apartheid campaigners, including Desmond Tutu, following a trip to Palestine, commented that it reminded him “so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa.”

As another poster suggested earlier, I believe the notion of a crisis of anti-semitism in the Labour Party has been deliberately created to divert attention away from the plight of the Palestinians and to keep the overwhelmingly pro-Israeli Conservative government in power.

Black and Asian people must be perplexed as to why the discrimination and racism in every area of public life, which several reports have shown them to experience, has never attracted the sort of unrelenting coverage that anti-semitism has. There are, of course racist people who despise anyone they consider to be different from themselves and at one time their focus was very much on Jewish people. In the US, for instance, Jewish people were subjected to both overt and covert racism in every area of public life, often treated as social pariahs, whilst a more subtle - but equally as corrosive - form was present in some surprisingly "respectable" and powerful groups in the UK. But these days - has anyone come across anybody making racist remarks about Jewish people or been aware of Jewish people being discriminated against in, for instance, education, housing and employment or under-represented in senior commercial or public office? I have certainly heard people feeling perfectly at ease in making derogatory remarks about muslims and black and Asian people generally. Yasmin Alibhai Brown only recently wrote an article recounting a conversation she heard in a Birmingham pub when three white men derided the England football team - claiming it wasn't English any more because it contained too many "nig nogs".

Eloethan thank you for your frankness. Whilst I don't agree with all you say there are area's of agreement, perhaps not quite as you see it, but nevertheless a coming together.

I do not believe it was right for Europe and the US to champion and enable the creation of the state of Israel, which involved the displacement and subjugation of the Palestinians already living there, and the theft of their land and property.
Taking your statement at face value I agree that the partition of Palestine when the British mandate ended to create a Jewish Homeland was from a European view point an error on a gigantic scale when we look back .

Of course the Jew's that had settled the land, for generations would disagree, they neither believed, nor subscribe to the fact that they were given the land, they believe they occupy the land of right, by ownership, since Arab and Jew lived side by side before partition for generation upon generations.

You say that Europe and the US 'championed" and "enabled the State of Israel". It may seem that that is so, and they did indeed vote for the UN motion, however the enormous lobbying was declared by Harry Truman to be the most unprecedented pressure from lobbyists that the White House had ever known. The History of this time is well worth reading, as is the Jewish version of events on: www.israeladvocacy.net/knowledge/the-truth-of-how-israel-was-created/britain-created-israel/
You will see that Britain and Greece did not vote in favour of Partition in 1947, however 72% of UN members did. If most of those Country's are to be believed, they were lobbied in the extreme, offered bribes, and threatened, by the Zionist's groups as they were known then to vote for and Arab groups to vote against. As I said earlier Harry Truman felt overwhelmed and bullied into agreement. So there were concerns, great concerns by the UN members it was not a cavalier vote by any means.

However, at no time would the Arab's agree to anything and threatened reprisals and bloodshed and there was, thousands of Jews were slaughtered. Again you can view the past from the present, but you can never judge it. As they say "you had to have been there".

Of course after the WW11 so many Jews, thousands and thousands who survived were displaced, no families, no homes, Europe was flattened, German men: soldiers returning from the War defeated, hopeless and often with no family to return to no home, along with the Jews released from camps on the brink of death. People dispersed all over Europe after all that trying to rebuild and live side by side, not just social and physical deprivation but mental trauma, physical illness and of course there was no food, and for years no work. It is impossible for us from the distance of almost 75 years to imagine what the end of WW11 was like. It was Hell on earth especially in Europe if you read historical documents. The very thought of a Jewish Homeland for some became an ideal, a sanctuary. It took years but eventually the State of Israel was established. It sounds easy, just read the History, not of one group but of each group,involved it's the only way to understand that it was not easy then and it is not easy now. Importantly if before people expouse their views, and those view as we so often hear become aimed and blamed on the Jews then it becomes anti-Semitic. The Arabs have a lot to answer for too and seeing them always as the victims in this conflict is neither accurate nor fair. Both Arab and Jew shared that land for centuries, they lived side by side, so each believe they have a right. Until they resolve those differences the intervention, the judgement and the taking sides makes us part of the problem rather than the solution.

You talk of racism, you ask the question are jews discriminated against in a way that suggest you believe they are not. You would have to ask the Jewish community. You see there is an issue here that is easy to ignore and perhaps isn't an issue Yasmin Alibhai Brown would accept, but is racism is the same as antisemitism is religious persecution the same as racism, and antisemitism, is Islamaphobia racism or religious persecution? Why are we categorising "Othering"? Why are you even asking if a Jew is more likely or less likely to be the butt of a racist remark rather than another group? My view is that unless a person looks different, is dressed as an Orthodox Jew, or is in a Burka, or is too fat or is covered in boils, then they will not be "Othered" because they are not standing out they are not seen as different. However is someone who look's the same as those around them then knocks on your door, presenting as Latter Day Saint or Jehovah Witness, suddenly the ordinary looking person like us view, becomes one of, no it's one of them, and we "Other" them.

White people are the butt of racist remarks in some area's, the aged like me suffer ageism remarks, the disabled are taunted, laughed at and pointed at. So let us keep a perspective here. Being 'Othered' is not the sole domain of any one group, it is anyone who is out of the norm. A norm set by those who think themselves able to judge others by their socially acceptable standard. It might happen in one place and not in another because the social standard is different.

This is a much bigger issue than blaming the Jews for Palestine, and making the Palestinians into victims. That is too simple. As soon as anyone blames and targets, any group and particularly the group we are discussing in this thread, the Jews, as you said at the beginning of your post I am not anti semitic but under the present description of anti-semitism I would be defined as such You are moving the goal post's to justify unacceptable treatment of another group whom you label Jews, that is as you rightly identified yourself anti-Semitic, it is not the present definition that makes it so, you make it so. No one can be a bit racist, no one can be a bit antisemitic, no one can be a bit Islamaphobic, no one can be a bit ageist, no one can be a bit cruel. I think you get the point I am attempting to make.
We are, or we are not, definition has nothing to do with it in my view. Just as the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn can't be a bit anti-Semitic either.

I will reply later, still very upset that Jews have been referred to as incomers and some defend anti semitism in the Labour Party . The Labour Party has always been the party which welcomed all races and faith, no longer.

Thanks Allygran, I haven't read the link to how Israel was created but will do so later. One of the things that Jewish people have in common is the link to ancestors who were persecuted and subjected to pogroms throughout history and in many different countries. It's no surprise that after WW2, Jewish survivors of the attempt to wipe out their entire race wanted to claim some of the place they'd always seen as their homeland.
I don't defend the current Israeli government's treatment of the Palestinians. As for who is subjected to greater degrees of racism, as Allygran says, its anyone who looks "other". The entrenched anti semitic beliefs about Jews owning most wealth etc haven't gone away either.

anniebach As with many of your comments expressing upset and outrage, it seems you have forgotten some of the remarks that you have made in the past which several posters took issue with:

""You use the pogroms and the Holocaust as an excuse for persecution" [of the Palestinians}

Venus replied as follows to one of your posts, in which you referred to the crucifixion of Jesus:

"I find your post concerning the crucifixion totally inflammatory and offensive ......... the Jews had no control over who killed Jesus. It's people like you that have caused anti-semitism throughout the centuries. It is a venomous hate statement."

You later posted:

"The hatred [of Jewish people] seemed to halt following WW2, now it has gone to the other extreme - any race can be criticised but not the Jews, criticise any Jew and one is anti-semitic".

Been trolling through old tbreads Eleothan, you must have a much more lonely life than me. Pity when you do your stalking you use posts taken from a whole thread , do put that wooden spoon away .

Regarding my posts from some years ago which my stalker has dug up. I still say I was right and Venus was wrong,

The crowd (Jews) were given the choice between Barabbas and Christ , they chose to save Barabbas.

In no way do I hold Jews since responsible for the crucifixion 2,000 years ago. Just fact that 2,000 years ago , what happened happened then.

criticsm ? Nothing wrong with criticism of Jews , God knows even today Christians in this country are criticised more than any faith.

I take criticism but I will not take criticism for the crusades .

I criticise Jon Lansman often, he is a Jew, I do not criticise him for what is taking place in Palestine .

Yes criticise the Government of Israel, but to sit with people who compare them with the Nazi as Corbyn has done ? No.

Eloethane, every time anti semitism is brought up I can now say you have admitted your views and opinions could define you as anti semetic and omit the rest of your post.

Allygran1 thank you for your link about the Jewish concept of the British attitude towards the ceation of a Jewish state. It is interesting and a real lesson in how presenting an argument by giving only selected information can acheive an aim. The position of the British in that area after the war was untenable. They were under attack by Jewish freedom fighters (who would now be referred to as terrorists) and naturally restricted interaction. But it never helps to interpret history purely from one point of view. All we can do is look at things as they are today and try to improve things for the future and there is no doubt that the policies pursued by the state of Israel are making life more difficult for Palestinians, that Israel has successively failed to implement UN resolutons and is pursuing a policy of expansion. The sad thing is that the policy is unlikely to succeed. Historically it has never been possible to completely subjugate a people and eventually they do rise again. In the meantime deaths and suffering on both sides continue. Under the IHRA rules this post would probably considered anti-semitic, it isn't. I have no prejudice against any Jews and live in an area where there is a large community of very traditional Jewish people whose lifestyle is very different, but who have a perfect right to live as they wish. Just as the other ethnic communities in the area do. I only wish the same could happen in the area where Palestinians and Israelis live.

And what of Corbyn trisher? You have defended him against accusations of supporting the IRA, of supporting anti semitism, he has now apologised for holding a meeting on halocaust day where the government of Israel was compared with the Nazi.

He attended memorial services for a member of the IRA .

He shared a platform with IRA members yet denied he had ever met them, but according to Abbott he did share the platform but didn’t speak to them .

He remained silent when a momentum member abused one of his own MP’s, a Jew. He remained silent at the NEC meeting when that NEC member spouted his anti semetic rant.

He has now apologise,not for the views of those people, only for any hurt which may have been caused .

You have raised all those issues before Annie and they have been answered. Try moving on.

Amen to that trisher.

I choose not to move on from my views of a leader who tolerates racism and terrorism , you want to Trisher

They have not been answered they have been defended and not with the truth

Thank you Allygran1 (and others) for raising the level of debate. This is indeed a serious issue and the questions raised here, and in the media, within the LP and across the political spectrum really needed airing.

There is no simple solution, no definitive definition that will satisfy all parties, but opening the subject to debate might just allow in some fresh air and fresh ideas.

Fennel 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished

Anniebach what is your opinion of support for Palestine by JC.

I am still upset that Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and other faiths are classed incomers to the U.K.

PEC, in no way do I support what is happening in Gaza but no way do i compare it with the death camps.