Should the electorate have the final say on Brexit?

Mumsnet ran a survey in August-September; more than 2000 MNetters took part. They were asking about MNetters thoughts about Brexit and whether there should be a second referendum.

The results show that 71% said they wanted another referendum (although 26% don't).

60% of survey respondents said they felt misled by claims made by campaigners in the 2016 referendum, including 41% who said they felt misled by claims made by the Leave campaign and 18% who said they felt misled by claims made by both Remain and Leave.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3355481-MNHQ-here-results-of-our-Brexit-survey-71-want-another-referendum

We know exactly the sort of training the Europeans health professionals have had and most of them speak good English - this is not always the case for those from further afield - why is it acceptable to have people from farther afield that the EU? Personally I have no problem with foreign health workers from wherever as long as I can understand them -so speaking English or French is good for me.

welshwife
So you wouldn't accept an Australian nurse or doctor? We have many doctors from Africa and India, do you not consider them qualified enough?
All qualifications of candidates to nursing or medical professions have to be validated and equivalenced against UK qualifications.

Please read again what I said.

Joelsnan: Why should we rely on cheap continental labour to do our work, we did it before free movement was allowed, we need to grow our skilled workforce and stop companies pocketting profits from not investing in training our people (there are 64,000,000 or more million of us) there certainly enough people who could be trained and stop using cheap overseas labour.

Correct. But are you sure then that after Brexit this is what will happen? Suddenly we will realize that we should invest in our own people. Perhaps we will also suddenly realize that we need to pay people a living wage, offer fair and secure working conditions including health and welfare, and while we are at it increase productivity. I'm afraid I don't share that optimism. As a nation, we put profit first.

Haven't you noticed, Joelsnan that we have 'full employment'? That means that there aren't huge numbers of jobs, or people to do them, going spare. If we drastically restrict immigration who is going to be available to fill the vacancies?

Incidentally, re a conversation we had a while ago; we travelled from the NE to Portsmouth and back a couple of weeks ago as part of a trip to France. It was midweek, so we travelled on working days. We were on motorways or major A roads for all of the journey. I looked out for all the 'foreign' lorries which you asserted were filling our roads. I'm afraid that all I saw was a vast preponderance of UK vehicles. Very few continental registrations.

Joelsnan: Why should we rely on cheap continental labour to do our work, we did it before free movement was allowed
Just one word will destroy that argument
Windrush

MaizieD
Full employment only achieved by including those in the zero hours, 'gig' employments and those now forced to register as self employed to enable them to work through employment agencies.
Sadly the employment situation for those unable to secure a standard full time, pensionable job is a disgrace.
Did you travel in the M62 when you returned from France? I promise you I do not lie about the HGVs. Maybe the industries they service are in the North and the come in and out at Hull or Immingham.docks.

yggdrasil
Windrush!
Odd arguament, those who came on MS Windrush were invited to work in the UK alongside UK citizens on the same terms and conditions. They did not displace tradesmen or work for less than the indigenous workforce.

M271, M27, A34, M40, M42, M1, M18, A1, Joelsnan.

They surely don't just concentrate on the M62?

No Maizie
Maybe I inadvertantly continue the spot the waggon game i used to play with my kids when we were travelling. I tend to look at number plates and no they are countywide. I think once you become aware you see them everywhere. Once again, why would I lie about this?

Joelsnan
It is amazing that extremely well qualified nurses and doctors from Australia had to take an English exam (at their own expense) before they could work in the NHS whereas those from the EU did not.

Joelsnan, in Britain we are 58,000 qualified truck drivers short of what is required. Polish drivers have been making up that shortfall but in recent months they have been returning to their own country as employment prospects there have improved since Poland joined the EU.

Many European Haulage companies trucking into Britain have stated that should Brexit bring delays at the Channel ports they will cease haulage operations that involve the UK.

So with seemingly no one wanting to train as HGV drivers here in Britain the future at this point in time looks decidedly bleak for the Road Haulage industry and all of us that rely on it everyday for what we need.

Of course this is just taking back control.

You are right, Grandad
Amongst the reasons for the huge shortfall:

More directives from the EU
The introduction of the controversial Drivers CPC has meant experienced drivers are required to take extra training. This was seen as too much for many drivers who chose to retire rather than complete the Drivers CPC.

Calais
The problems at the French port are having a negative impact on the industry as a whole. The press coverage accompanying it has shown the nation that being a HGV driver can be dangerous. There has been several incidents of drivers being threaten and intimidated by groups of desperate migrants trying to gain access in to their lorries. This kind of bad press will definitely impact the perception of the HGV drivers role.

Wages
The Labour government opened the floodgates to the EU workforce around 10 years ago and since then an influx of foreign HGV drivers who will work for much less has made it very difficult for a UK HGV driver to make a good wage. Haulage operators are choosing to bring in drivers from the likes of Poland and Lithuania as they can pay them less rather than opting for home grown drivers. Due to this wages within the industry seem to have stayed low even though there is high demand.

www.returnloads.net/hgv-driver-shortage/

This needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency and the career made more appealing to younger people by providing training which is funded and prospective drivers do not have to find the costs themselves.

Once again, why would I lie about this?

And why should I lie about it, Joelsnan?

After you'd mentioned it a while ago I earmarked this particular journey for corroboration. I'm not unfamiliar with lorries, my OH was in the transport business for 30+ years. All I can say is that I didn't see many that weren't British. Perhaps continental lorries are concentrated in your area but that doesn't mean that Britain's roads are as full of them as you appeared to be claiming.

Jalima1108, thanks for the link in your post @ 21:07 on the 04/09/18 which I feel should be read by anyone interested in the effects of Brexit on the road haulage industry.

I would agree that some EU legislation and actions has been detrimental an exasperated the driver shortage especially the CPC directive.

However the Blair government
actions were to encourage Polish drivers to come to Britain to fill the vacancies already appearing in driving rather than tackling why British people did not want to train to fill the vacancies.

That stated, the legislation surrounding HGV and PSV drivers is the same throughout Europe and only Britain seems to be struggling with that legislation. Therefore I feel we must look for why it is that professional driving jobs are so unattractive to people ( especially young people) in Britain.

It should also be remembered that should the UK amend the legislation surrounding the Haulage Industry following Brexit without EU agreement then British HGV drivers would in all probability not be allowed to drive on European roads.

The above is one the reasons why I feel Britain should remain in the EU. From within you can fight along with other countries for change. After Brexit Britain will have to accept whatever the EU bring forward especially when it comes to cross-border Industries such as road haulage.

However, the problems of the road haulage industry are the most fundamental in Brexit, and those problems will affect everyone in the UK if Britain leaves Europe without a customs agreement.

I would encourage everyone to read the link in the Jalima1108 post above fully.

There are many reasons why we have a shortage of drivers and the practice of undercutting wages was/is one of them.

I have made mentioned 'many times' the problems for British Workers of the ' European Union Workers Directive''. It is a regulation that allowed for EU workers to work in the UK on the wages of the country they came from, UNDERCUTTING British workers wages. There has recently been a vote to say the payment should be that of the country they are now working in but that comment needs checking. I believe that Corbyn and the Unions had an issue with the EU Workers Directive also, for obvious reasons.

I further looked into The European Workers Directive which I clearly stated had recently been voted on for change.

This is the new Directive which does now state the following and to which you refer and I did say I thought had been introduced:-

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=471

maximum work periods and minimum rest periods
minimum paid annual holidays
the minimum rates of pay (including overtime)
health and safety at work
protection for women who are pregnant or have just given birth
equal treatment for men and women and other rules to prevent discrimination
hiring out agency workers

This is the new Directive which does now state the following and to which you refer and I did say I thought had been introduced:-

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=471

maximum work periods and minimum rest periods
minimum paid annual holidays
the minimum rates of pay (including overtime)
health and safety at work
protection for women who are pregnant or have just given birth
equal treatment for men and women and other rules to prevent discrimination
hiring out agency workers

Revision of the Posting of Workers Directive

' On the 8 of March 2016, the European Commission 'proposed' a revision of the rules on posting of workers within the EU to ensure they remain fit for purpose. Until Member States and the European Parliament have agreed on the revision and the new rules have entered into force, ' the current rules remain in place'.
-

The European Workers Directive is/was commonly known as 'Social Dumping' and as far as I can see it there is still controversy/problems surrounding the 'new' and yes improved workers rights on equal pay.

The 'new/improved' Directive has not been officially passed by the 28 EU Nation States thus far hence the Directive states :-

Until Member States and the European Parliament have agreed on the revision and the new rules have entered into force, ' the current rules remain in place'.

The European Workers Directive most certainly does UNDERCUT wages and if a company is self governing and applying the revised Directive well good on them but that may not be the case.

The European Workers Directive was started in 1996 and has been an issue ever since. An old example would be the 2009 mass walk out by Refinery Workers at the Lindsey Refinery , Immingham .

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/7855752.stm

'Mass walkout over foreign labour'

"Unite shop steward Garry Scales said: "We are angry that workers have been taken on from outside the UK when people here are out of work."

This article is one of many that are informative .

www.euractiv.com/section/social-europe-jobs/news/posted-workers-revision-gets-off-to-shaky-start/

Quotes

"The new proposal intends to redress so-called ‘social dumping’, where European companies use low-cost workers to circumvent the labour laws of the host country.

The revision of the 1996 EU law has sparked controversy in the past, as the 28-country bloc struggles to reconcile the freedom to offer cross-border services, a cornerstone of the internal market, with clear differences in wages and levels of social protection.

An average hour of work costs an employer €40 in Denmark and €39 in Belgium, but only €3.80 in Bulgaria, €4.60 in Romania or €8.40 in Poland, according to Eurostat data for 2014."

I know for a fact British lorry drivers lost their jobs to EU workers and all I can say is living in the midlands which has turned into a logistics centre it has been noticeable for years the amount of lorries with EU plates.

In this stupid disagreement about EU lorries on our roads does anyone think for one moment about the thousands of British lorries on EU roads? It's all part of international trade.

I think it's also a quite different issue from that of EU drivers taking jobs in the UK.

POGS

You're talking about the Posted Workers Directuve, aren't you? Can you clarify how that adversely affects UK wages for lorry drivers?

As I understand it the PWD applies only to workers nominally employed in their country of origin and 'posted' to another EU country temporarily for work. Are you telling us that there are agencies in other EU countries employing drivers to work for UK transport companies?

Because if you aren't I don't see its relevance. There is no industry standard for drivers' wages so individual companies can setcwhatever rates they please.

Maize D

" You're talking about the Posted Workers Directuve, aren't you? Can you clarify how that adversely affects UK wages for lorry drivers? "

. If I say it is about the Posted Workers Directive in my post then yes I am talking about the Posted Workers Directive .

I think I gave examples in my post how it affects wages , including lorry drivers.

Not sure what you cannot follow to be honest.

MaizieD
There are far fewer UK lorries on the continent and those that are, are in the main driven by Eastern European drivers.
Also nearly all Eastern European lorries on our roads deluvering goods will also fill their wagons for the return trip.
That's all i am saying about lorries and drivers.

So you think the British and Irish lorry drivers who work in Switzerland for much higher wages and better should earn the same as the low UK wages then? Same for all the doctors, nurses, IT and business specialists, teachers, etc - from the UK and Ireland here in Switzerland?

They have very high wages, and getting higher and higher as Sterling drops and the Swiss Franc goes up - as they do spend a lot of their money on shopping in UK, investments (like property), sending money back for family, etc ...

Doctors and nurses are queuing up as they are so fed up with the NHS terrible conditions and fears for the future- only thing that is holidng them up is that they have had to specialise too early and dropped French or German for A'Levels.

And should anything go wrong- like Nestlé outsourcing their IT services to Spain ... they will get 70% of that high salary, or 80% if they have children, for 2 years + further training, free language courses, etc. Nice that.

Having just read through these posts, how can it be that there are still those who believe that some good will come of Brexit. And as for those who complain of the tediousness of another referendum - they beggar belief! Do they read about the potential outcome of a no deal exit from Europe? Do they read? Can they read? I despair that there are those of my generation, who are so badly informed, or uneducated, or both, that they cannot see what is glaringly obvious to the likes of financiers, industrialists, health service leaders, food suppliers, medicine importers .........need I go on? Talk about sleep walking over the edge! Blindly following, lemming-like, that megalomaniac who has the nerve to call herself a 'Prime Minister'. And all for what? What will the UK gain? Debt rolling down the years for our children and grandchildren ? You want that? Food queues? Medicine shortages? You want those? The south east of England turned into a lorry park? No more cheap flights to Europe? Yes please, say the Brexiters! Anything, other than having to put a cross on a bit of paper again!
For pity's sake - read a quality newspaper, read the comments by clever informed people. Take it in!

Posts in his thread have referred to the European Working time directive when in fact it is the EU drivers hours regulations that overwhelmingly in Britain govern both LGV and PSV licence holders working and off-duty rest time. Those regulations are very complex in that they control all working and rest periods for professional drivers over ether a thirteen or twenty-six week reference period.

However, many who work in or are close to the haulage/Distribution industry are convinced that it is not in the main regulation or wages that has brought about the severe driver shortage, but deplorable working conditions and the over supervision of drivers by many employers.

By example to the above, HGV vehicles often carry high-value freight and therefore the vehicles have live tracking placed on them that allows constant monitoring from a remote supervisory centre. It has often happened that a driver will stop for a toilet break only to have his phone ring before he even leaves the cab to be told he/she cannot stop there as it is not a scheduled or secure area for any break. That sort of over supervision is what many in the industry feel has caused the ever-growing driver shortage.

Along with the above, transport is an industry were drivers work long unsocial hours in all weathers for both driving and loading/unloading and that often soon deters many younger drivers with families from remaining in the industry for very long even though large sums may have been spent on their training.

Despite common belief drivers employed by agencies are better paid than those in regular employment with recognised distribution companies. Those agencies are almost all British based and have in the past recruited a percentage of their drivers from Poland, but that has now become far more difficult as employment prospects for Polish drivers are now far better in their home country than in past years.

A top category LGV driver can earn £35,000-£40,000 per year if they are employed on distribution to the large supermarket companies, car carriers or tanker fuel delivery. However, even in those employment categories recruitment and retention of drivers has become difficult in recent years.

All the above will have a very serious impact on Brexit should delays start to occur at the ports when even more drivers and vehicles will be required to carryout the work that those drivers queuing at the ports would have been doing.

Finally, the Road Transport industry had good trade union organisation prior to the Thatcher anti trade union legislation and the agencies entering the industry. The Blair government had many years to address the problems that caused for employees but in fact did nothing but to encourage Polish drivers to come to Britain. That pigeon has now come home to roost with consequences for all living in Britain should there be no customs agreement on Brexit.