Meanwhile in Scotland 2

I agree jura, there has been nothing but disinterest and contempt shown for Scotland over the last few years by WM. Shouting for independence before you’ve got any new offer for the no voters though is pointless - imo Sturgeon has to show that there’s a real benefit to leaving the UK with something better in its place (Ie EU membership), and that needs to be agreed before we go rather than at some vague point in the future.

Well, seen from a distance- I'd say she is right here- the disdain and disrespect for Scotland and the remain Scotts, from Westminster- is vast:

www.facebook.com/theSNP/videos/747047812439370/

The uselessness of the Scottish government can't be overstated. SueDonim mentions only a few of their current failings. Its extremely depressing. There are 'interesting' times ahead for SNP next year. Insiders tip Derek Mackay to take over from Nicola.

There’s nothing heroic, Jura, about an NHS falling into ever deeper crisis, with two brand new hospitals unfit for purpose, school standards slipping ever downwards and services being centralised leaving anywhere outside of the Central Belt isolated.

This is for Granny23, paddyann and our other friends in the SNP

www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-FT3W-rXsA

Not among some Antipodeans, Jura !

There is a massive wave of sympathy growing in the EU for Scotland- a true friend and the 'underdog' - who are seen as the heroes of the debâcle.

Independence would be massive for tourism, and also for industry, commerce and finances- I am absolutely convinced.

I was totally against the break up of the Union and was so pleased when the Scots voted against it.

But now, well I just could not blame them. They have been treated abominably - and the antics of Johnson on his mobile phone in the Commons the other day, was pre-planned and meant to insult with great disdain- as was his reply when called up on it 'well speak about something more interesting then' was beyond rude, beyond contempt.

www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/563701191078002/

The Catalan situation is very different from that in Scotland.The EU doesn't involve itself in DOMESTIC policy ,despite stories that say otherwise.they did condemn the violence last year when the police were brutal..BUT they dont have the power to do anything ..there isn't a mythical EU Army ready to strike .
Scotland can do even less,we have also offered support to the Catalans through our politicians and our grassroots supporters of Independence,many fly the flag of Catalunya and carry them in tandem with Saltires on marches.
We gave our PHYSICAL support to Clara Ponsati who remains safe here since the 2018 atrocities took place.Spain is clearly showing its fascist roots with the tactics against civilians .No Nation should be held in any union against its will and certainly not by force

It's puzzling therefore that this magnanimity that the EU extends to Scotland, as I imagine they would uphold the result of a Scottish Independence vote, should a 2nd Referendum take place, simply ignore the fact that Spain has flouted democracy in locking up Catalonians who have the same aspirations for their region. Their silence on the matter is deafening

Fiachna its not about wanting Eutopia ,its about making choices that suit us ....even making our own mistakes and not being dictated which mistakes we have to have ...Brexit for instance .I truly dont understand this allegiance to a foreign country ...well except if you were around during WW11 ...though there are many supporters of Independence who are that age including our wonderful Winnie ,madame Ecosse as Europe calls her .

Urmston We shouldn't NEED permission to hold a referendum Westminster is not sovereign in Scotland ...nor is Lizzie .The people of Scotland are sovereign and when WE want a referendum we should have it.

I didn't see Cameron asking permission of the other nations in the UK for permission for his rederendum!! Whats good for the goose?

FIACHNAwe aren;t and never have been dictated to by the EU !!
Get some facts please.WESTMINSTER HAS CONTROL OVER 80% of our laws and rules and takes billions from us every year.We GAIN from our EU membership in ways we certainly dont from WM.Those exports to England ..think you need to look at those too ,yes we send them power BUT WE pay to have it put on the national grid unlike any other supplier who get PAID for their supply...whisky ..which is 25% of all UK food and drink exports is counted as ENGLISH because it leaves through English ports.Oil income isn't counted as Scottish but from an "UNKNOWN REGION" thats so they can fiddle us out of BILLIONs ,tens of Billions of pounds EVERY year .You really need to take a closer look at WHY Boris and his shady cohorts want to hold onto us .
We are a wealthy country .

Can you even imagine Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford in prison?

Mind you, wasn’t Catalunia’s referendum deemed illegal from the start? Madrid should have ignored it after denouncing it. Instead they went in gung ho and inflamed the situation.

The EU are happy to keep out of it because Madrid is of the EU mindset. Note though how Guy Verhofstadt didn’t mind meddling over Brexit - coming to cosy up with the Lib Dem’s to rally the troops. Double standards there!

At least Scotland’s referendum was with the consent of Westminster and was therefore legal.

Yes Fiachna, should the EU not step in to arbitrate in this matter. Surely having political prisoners in a member state should be against the basic ethos of a democratic body. Either you subscribe to that ideal or not, but as a lukewarm remainer, I find the EU undemocratic anyway.

Terribull, the silence from the EU and from the SNP on Catalonia has been deafening. I am not a supporter of Scottish Independence, just wanted to contribute. However, Ive said my piece and now withdraw from this thread. I don't think I can really contribute much else here. Good luck to all.

correction "habit" not bit

I don't make a bit of wandering on to this thread given it pertains to all things Scottish and being English I think it's best to butt out. However, I would like to pose this question to those who are pro Scottish independence. Given the parallels between Scotland's position and that of Catalan, how do you feel about the draconian measures meted out to dissenting Catalans by Spain and the seemingly lack of condemnation by the EU itself?

That's what I meant by the 'population at large'.
I truly felt better after listening to N S's conference speech which was not all about indyref2!
Finally after all this brexit fiasco I am beginning to see a way out.
If only that were true for you and others like you.

Not just the majority of Scots mcem. That scenario would be just great for most folk in the UK.

If, in a vacuum, knowing nothing about brexit, the population at large were offered a future free of Bojo and Farage then I bet there would be huge vote in favour.
The prospect of being free of two dishonest, self-serving right-wingers and their shady associates would be an attractive one. A future with an elected parliament with representatives from all parties (NOT only SNP) would be a brighter one than remaining in thrall to Westminster.

Well that's what the majority of Scots are aiming to achieve.

Yet Paddyann, you are happy to be dictated to by Brussels! That is if Scotland gets to join! We sell more to England, than we do to the EU. I really hope that if we gain Independence, it is the utopia you think it's going to be.

how has the EU been preventing us to leave ???

I sympathise Paddyann! The UK has the same problem with the EU! Determined to hang onto us at all costs despite what the majority want! I think you'll find that the rest of the UK won't be at all difficult if you want to leave the union, in direct contrast to how the EU has been with us! Not sure that Westminster is that desperate!! I'm sure Scotland will manage perfectly on its own as it did many moons ago. As for us, we'll be just fine, and not to have to listen to Ian Blackford in Westminster or anywhere else will be an added bonus!

A bit like the UK and EU, for every £1 we give Brussels we get 38p back.

So will you be happy with a similar arrangement for an Independent Scotland and EU?