Why are "Leavers" so angry?

varian
Your myopia is truly concerning.

*GG13
Same here, can't wait. Yippee*

But why? Why? I don't understand the excitement.

OK Joeslsnan please tell us in what way we and our children and our granchildren could possibly be better off if our wonderful country was deprived of the great advantage of EU membership.

I am so myopic I just can't see it at all.

Joelsnan I don't understand the reference "Even Aaron Banks this week."

abbey Very good post - I can understand now why you feel angry.

I suspect they're trying to wind you up grapefruitpip.

I disagree that those who voted to remain have destroyed any semblance of democracy. Democracy is and should be about more than putting a tick in a box.

Nevertheless, I would have accepted the result, but my attitude has hardened after understanding that there really is no solution to Ireland and Gibraltar and that the people who said that we had trade deals, etc lined up really were lying. After three years, I'm still struggling to see any advantages and those who voted to leave are curiously reluctant to come up with any genuine reasons for leaving.

Most of all, having witnessed the underhand tricks of Johnson & Co., I am more convinced than ever that leaving the EU is the wrong thing to do.

I am extremely concerned for the future of my country and its democratic institutions.

We should all as intelligent voters pay attention to facts which emerge after a vote.

Nobody - absolutely nobody, no matter which way they voted in 2016, could have possibly known what we all know now - that any kind of brexit would be a disaster for our country.

This is not "insulting the intelligence of 17.4 million people" as the leave campaigners often claim.

It is a simple statement of fact.

I thought that we lived in a country that was democratic and I have always voted not knowing whether my choice was a winner or loser, however, understanding how democracy works I always accepted whatever the outcome was.

That is still true. It hasn't changed in any way. When you vote in an election the person with the greatest number of votes will become your constituency MP. That was what enfranchisement gave us, the right to choose our representative.

We did not, at any point, change our democracy to involve any form of representative democracy. The referendum was advisory and I certainly remember that being discussed at the time. One MP or a small group of MPs cannot decide that it must be followed; that would have to be changed in law. It would always need a majority.

Parliament is sovereign. They could decide just how we changed our relationship with the EU or even whether or not we changed it. Your only way of doing anything about that was to vote for a different balance in parliament, and we did. After a short period of seeing what May was doing, we voted in a hung parliament. The people spoke and that was the time it counted.

Rather than be angry perhaps we should all be asking for a Citizen's Assembly or similar to discuss whether we should make some changes to our democracy and how we ensure that everyone possible is aware exactly how it works.

Indeed- people who voted Leave did so on the very limited, and often flawed information, and, fact, lies- so I could not ever blame them for doing so.

But I am afraid I cannot understand why people now refuse to face the reality of consequences.

Ireland was an afterthought. There was some footage of Cameron and Boris sort of staggering about the day after the election. ( which is now unavailable) I don't think anybody considered Ireland.

I understand it jura. In psychology it's called "cognitive dissonance". You have very strong views and soak up everything which reinforces those views. It's extremely difficult to re-programme your thought processes.

That's not quite true grapefruitpip. I distinctly remember some "experts" talking about Ireland before the referendum. I make absolutely no claim to be an expert, but I remember asking questions about Ireland. It was all dismissed as not important, making a fuss or "Project Fear".

It wouldn't surprise me if Cameron and Johnson hadn't thought about Ireland. It was because people like them hadn't thought about anybody outside their bubble that we're in the mess we're now in.

In my ideal world, I'd like to cancel Article 50 and invite groups of those who voted to leave to sit down and discuss what's really bothering them. I have a pretty good idea, but I wouldn't want to pre-empt what they have to say. I seriously understand the concern about jobs and the undercutting of wages, but leaving the EU really isn't the answer. We need a Westminster government which cares about everybody in the country, wherever they live, however educated they are, regardless of age, gender or ethnic background.

I actually do have a vision for a better future, but it's not outside the EU with a load of bullying hedge fund managers in charge.

Good post abbey

varian
Nobody - absolutely nobody, no matter which way they voted in 2016, could have possibly known what we all know now - that any kind of brexit would be a disaster for our country

Nobody can say that with any certainty, it is all supposition. We have never left the EU so there is nothing but probability to base these assumptions on.

Its like building a ship to a new design, the old ship builders shake their heads and cry don't launch it it will sink. The new designers have faith and sail off into the sunset.
We would never have had our rail transport network had the naysayers won. Progress always requires a leap of faith.

It is the bankers and profiteering business classes that are providing the anti brexit rhetoric, just as they did in the pre referendum period, hoping by spreading fear they will be able to retain their money making profiteering status quo to the detriment of the working classes.

The bankers and profiteering business classes are driving brexit.

"Boris Johnson’s donor Crispin Odey eyes Brexit jackpot with £300m bet against British firms"

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-donor-crispin-odey-eyes-brexit-jackpot-with-300m-bet-against-british-firms-0lwjbnqsn

growstuff
Joelsnan I don't understand the reference Even Aaron Banks this week

Channel 4 news
24 Sep 2019
NCA says ‘no evidence’ Leave.EU and Arron Banks broke law
Jonathan Rugman
Foreign Affairs Correspondent
The National Crime Agency has announced that it has dropped an investigation into the source of businessman Arron Banks’s £8 million donation to the campaign group Leave.EU.

The NCA began its inquiries after a referral from the Electoral Commission in October last year.

Today it concluded there is “no evidence” Mr Banks or others investigated by the NCA committed “any criminal offences” in relation to electoral or company law.

So all leavers are drunks? That explains a great deal.

Oh for pity's sake; stop with all the childish insults and bullshit. Comments like this just fuel the anger and antagonism between us. Whichever way you voted in the referendum; whatever your feelings and concerns are now about how we're going to get out of this unholy mess; making asinine comments like that simply cause deeper divisions.

Who said all leavers drunks?

varian
If this was the case why all the scaremongering. Surely they would be lobbying their non executive director MP cronies to push to leave, but they are not, it is not logical.
The fear mongering is to ensure they retain the status quo. Fat cats getting fatter from the workers.
Of course there will be gamblers who will be betting on all potential outcomes.

These billionaire gamblers are and always have been the ones who were pulling the strings.

GracesGranMK3 17.22

Joelsnan this leave voter is a glass full up and brimming over type ??

So all leavers are drunks? That explains a great deal.

Here you go Varian.

varian
FYI:
message GracesGranMK3 Fri 27-Sep-19 17:22:29
Joelsnan this leave voter is a glass full up and brimming over type ??

So all leavers are drunks? That explains a great deal.

Thank you for the reply Joelsnan. No hidden agenda. I just hadn't understood your post.

For goodness sake!

Doesn't anybody understand metaphors?

How about a sane and rational discussion?

To be honest Joelsnan I think it's gone beyond fearmongering. I know that I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) would like some concrete reassurances.

We're only a couple of weeks away from a momentous change, but all we're getting is fudging.

Most of us have seen Yellowhammer and know what the real problems are. This is Project Reality.