Will the fat lady sing?

Hmm … I haven't been a member of GN for three years, but I can honestly say I haven't seen three years of "discussing the subject" anywhere and all I've seen on GN is defensiveness.

Belittling? How is pointing out that claims are wrong belittling?

I doubt if you've ever witnessed real bullying, if that's your definition.

It is incredibly difficult to know when listening to Johnson exactly what you can trust and what you can’t.

Yesterday for instance there are a number of down righ5 lies he told and a few very fishy statements.

1. He said “there can be no regression” from the rights workers currently enjoy. Not true. WAB merely says government must tell MPs if workers are going to lose their rights. See Schedule 5A, Part 1, Clause (1)(b)

2.PM added the government will give time for an "amendable" motion if EU improves social protection. False. The motion isn’t amendable. (Schedule 5A, Part 2, Clause 5(a)).

3. Johnson said on Northern Ireland "default position is alignment with the UK". Untrue. Default position is alignment with the EU. ( Article 18, para 5 of the revised Irish protocol).

4. He claimed: “There are no checks GB-NI." Uh-oh. Government’s own impact assessment says: Goods moving fromGB to NI will have to "complete both import declarations and Entry Summary (ENS) Declarations This will result in additional admin costs to businesses.” (See para 241.)

5. PM added there was “absolutely no provision for the EU to have a say” on whether NI leaves arrangements. False. Revised protocol says: “Any subsequent agreement between the Union and the UK shall indicate the parts of this Protocol which it supersedes.” See Article 13 (8)

6. Johnson claimed NI "benefits immediately from any UK trade deals”. He forgot to say NI can only benefit from trade deals with third countries “provided that those agreements do not prejudice the application of this Protocol.” (See Article 4)

Now for the very fishy statements

1. He told MPs "we will take back 100% control of [our] spectacular marine wealth ”. But political declaration says UK and EU should try to “establish a new fisheries agreement on, inter alia, access to waters and quota shares” by next July (paras 73, 74)

2. PM promised “no crashing out [at the end of next year], because we will negotiate a great new friendship and partnership within the timescale.” But Barnier yesterday said that talks could take “two, three or more years”.

3. Johnson guaranteed “no problems at the channel ports and no problems on Kent’s roads”. Again, how can he give that assurance? If we crash out next year, it will be worthless.

4. PM said he had “every hope that the entire 3.4 million [EU citizens ] will have registered by the time of the deadline.” Maybe the vast majority will have. But the “entire” group? Not credible.

5. He gave a “commitment” to reinforce environmental standards, in response to a question over whether there would be a “clear non-regression clause, as we have on workers’ rights”. Even if he does, a commitment that copies the wording on workers’ rights won’t be worth much.

6. Johnson also gave an “assurance” that consumer protection will be written into the Bill. Again, if it’s like the language on workers’ rights, that will be cold comfort.

Perhaps Johnson doesn’t understand what he has signed , in which case he'll benefit from taking more time. Or he is trying to hoodwink MPs. Either way, the longer the scrutiny goes on, the more his deal will be shown to be rotten to the core.

Hugo Dixon

No; it's called asking a question and wanting an answer....

Will my family be better off out of the EU? Yes, I think it will.

lemongrove Wed 23-Oct-19 09:56:35 & GrannyGravy13 Wed 23-Oct-19 10:13:41 you may well have answered on threads that I have not been on but you haven't done so on any I have so it is a perfectly reasonable question. However if you really do believe I am 'bullying' by asked a question you can report me to HQ and let them decide. Please explain where I have 'belittled'? Please don't do the 'victim' thing so many do when they can't answer the question, it does you no credit and I have seen it so many times.

growstuff Wed 23-Oct-19 10:32:11 I've been on longer than that and I share your observations.

Labaik Wed 23-Oct-19 10:38:58 precisely

Whitewavemark2 Wed 23-Oct-19 10:38:27 I saw that too this morning, I thought it was very reasonable.

umpling Wed 23-Oct-19 14:04:13 I am happy for you but would you please share the reasons and convince me that i am wrong? Thanks

Nonnie
You obviously do not remember, but I did answer you in depth earlier this year. Plus I advised you to search back over Brexit threads where many many leave voters gave their reasons (may e not directly to you) over the last three years. Most of them have left this site because no matter how many times they justified their decision they/we are still met with the same ‘Leavers wont tell me why’.
Well this week I have asked the same question of remainers. I received one response the reasoning of which was disprovable. All I asked was concise reasons not generalisations. Would you care to contribute?

I have only ever reported one post (it was a remain voter who was blaming leave voters for children’s deaths) I think in general it’s best to leave posts so that all can read them.

Nonnie - I can’t convince you you’re wrong because your circumstances are probably very different to mine so you see the world (well, the EU) very differently. Remaining may be right for you, it just isn’t for me.

You say you think that you and your family would be better off "after brexit" NfkDumpling.

Are you and all your family tax-dodging billionaire currency speculators? -because it is quite clear that everyone else would be much worse off.

If you say so Varian it must be right. I’ll go back in my box.

Nonnie....I haven’t the faintest notion what you are burbling on about.Victim card, bullying? You confuse me with someone else entirely, I have never accused you of that .
If you mean my post saying that I don’t answer ‘badgering for answers’ type posts ....? It’s just a fact, I don’t bother with them.

Not read this thread, but is it about Arlene?

jura you mean the fat lady?

?????

She isn’t fat is she?

Just a member of that very unpleasant far right group who has some very dubious members. I believe she has been in talks with the paramilitary loyalists lately, since she hasn’t been getting her way over Brexit.

Will the fat lady sing?

I was supposed to but my ride never turned up. But how on earth did you know?

Well once again it seems that any extension given to us by the EU is going to be used to do anything but address the Brexit question.

Now Johnson has decided to try to go for an election before Christmas.

However, he has managed to split his cabinet over this. (Well there is a novelty)

Some rather sensibly want to try to get the deal through in time for the 31 January and others who are keen to go for an election.

Oh yes I forgot to post this

#DowningStreetSource

Has said that there will be no 31st October this year until they say it is the 31st October.

Let the Tories "stew in their own juice" I feel. They have created this crisis from the start and they should now be made to suffer the public reaction when Brexit is finally passed and the consequences are there for all to see and feel.

2022 is the set date for the next General Election, therefore let the Tories struggle and Corbyn can then pick the most opportune moment between now and that date to bring this pathetic excuse for a government down and generate that election.

Great stuff I think. ??

I agree full heartedly grandad but I’m not sure if that is what will happen.

The Tories have brought this entirely on themselves and unfortunately the country.

Let Brexit begin to show its ugly head as we attempt to negotiate trade deals.

The only problem is that the status quo will exist during transition, so the full effect won’t be felt until we fully leave.

The smart move by Johnson is to press for an election as soon as possible.Once the EU have granted a short extension then Corbyn will have to agree to one, as he has promised they will do.

Whitewavemark2, I can agree with much in your above post. However, only the Tories wish to have a Christmas General Election so going beyond that would find favour with the Electorate.

Also, Jeremy Corbyn has stated that he does not wish to lead the Labour Party into the next General Election due to his age. Therefore, following the new year, a ballot of the whole Labour movement could be organised to elect a leader to replace Corbyn. That will take a least eight weeks and during that period Jeremy Corbyn would remain as leader of the opposition in the House of Commons.

With that time taken up, it will then be running into spring and the new leader would the be able to pick the most opportune moment to bring Johnson and his cronies down, and that could be anytime until 2022.

The only downside I can see to the above would be Labour would not have Corbyn's great campaigning spirit at hand for that election

lemongrove in regard to your post @09:24 today, Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the opposition is the only person in Parliament who has the power to call a vote of no confidence in this excuse for a government. That Corbyn can do at any time of his and the Labour Parties choosing.

Johnson can "huff & puff" all he wishes but he does not have the power to call an election prior to 2022 as exasperating as that may be to him and his cronies.

He is trapped by the fixed parliament act that the Tories brought into being. ?

Are you a communist Grandad? Just asking because Corbyn and crew are generally regarded as being extremely left wing, in fact more or less communist. Certainly far more to the left than Tony Blair’s government was. That is why Corbyn is doing so poorly in the polls. Under Corbyn there is absolutely no chance of a Labour government, change the leader and it’s all up for grabs.
I fully expect you to answer that Corbyn is the best thing since sliced bread, but the majority of the population don’t agree with you.

Joelsnan Wed 23-Oct-19 17:14:0 I am happy to. Just three for now as that is what I have asked you for:

1 Our GDP according to official figures is likely to be 6% if we leave which is an average cost to each of us of £2000.

2 My grandchildren will lost the right to live and work in the EU, an opportunity which some of my friends have taken and are happy with.

3 Our buying/negotiating power will be greatly reduced as we will be in the position of the corner shop trying to get the same terms as Tesco.

Over to you.

lemongrove Wed 23-Oct-19 19:28:27 and "I haven’t the faintest notion what you are burbling on about." Perhaps you should read my post before deciding what it said? It was one answer to two people.

I can't remember which of you said I 'belittled' but it would interesting if one of you could show me where you 'found' that suggestion?