Can anyone apart from the elite, say what they want from Brexit

I completely agree with the post made by Davidhs @07:48 today. A deregulated Britain is exactly what Johnson and those around him wish as that will benefit the most powerful in our society to the detriment of working families on average incomes.

There is no Brexit utopia out there, but I in no way censure anyone who believed all the *propaganda" that was placed in the public domain by the very wealthy and powerful Brexit individuals who foreseen great advantage to themselves personally in the United Kingdom leaving the European Union.

Maddyone, is right in principle, but not in practice. Certainly no random person should be put in a public witness book and interrogated about the minutae of their voting decision, but unless there is a dialogueand each side understands why the other side made the decision it did however are people ever to reach a consensus on the best way forward?

Surely what we are seeing at the moment is what happens when people are not discussing the issues, just hurling insults at each other and asserting they are right?

Frankly, as a Remainer, I think many of the arguments put forward by other Remainers, including a number on this thread about the fire and brimstone and economic disaster that will descend if we leave are ridiculous. I do not think it will be economically advantagious for us, but most of what is said is just doom mongering.

Both doom-mongering Remainers and triumphalist Leavers convinced that with one great leap they will be free have failed to notice that all the EU law passed in the 40 years we were a member have already been officially incorporated into British law through an Act of Parliament, so any subsequent changes away from EU will have to be debated and agreed before any change is made. Much of this law would have been debated and enacted in the British Parliament anyway and for once, commendably, Parliament decided not to re-invent the wheel and if the EU passed legislation, they did not insist on doing it themselves as well.

I am tempted to quote Michael Winner. Remember? 'Calm down, ladies (and gents). Calm down.

Your post puts the Brexiteers intended outcome of leaving the EU very well Davidhs, but unfortunately Maizie is right that the vast majority of, at least, the vocal leavers have been told where the blame lies for all the ills they see in this country and they have chosen to to swallow the propaganda, hook line and sinker.

You might think that the last few years of incompetence we have seen, from the very Tories who have said this, would open their eyes to their incompetence running our country but sadly, the huge amount of money put behind their propaganda overwhelms the ability of some to reason their way through all this.

Grandad1943
^ should trade deals come about with nations that have low regulations built into their economies etc^

I think you'll find that we already do: it's called China, the eu is their largest trading partner.

So you think your own views give you the right to be just as ridiculous and sure of your own self-righteousness as you consider anyone else to be who puts their views forward on a forum M0nica. You are probably right about that if nothing else.

I am very willing to be ridiculous. As to self righteous, I am not sure where that comes from, I just find the, sometimes over-emotional attitudes, and extreme positions many people espouse unhelpful at a time when more than anything a coming together and raprochment is needed.

I am not claiming any special value for my views. I just feel very uncomfortable faced with extremism.

Monica I ageee with your last post, there needs to be a coming together of both sides. Not all that voted leave are extreme " Brexiteers" or right wing BNP supporters. Some like me listened to the younger generation, researched the EU and it's machinations and made up their mind in the polling booth. The only place I have encountered any nastiness, bullying or name calling for my decision is on GN.

petra, in regard to your post @08:52 today, commercial relations with China are governed by the 1985 EU-China Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Since 2007, negotiations have been underway to upgrade this to a new European Union Association Agreement and there are already 24 sectoral dialogues and agreements from environmental protection to education.

As can be seen, by the above, Trade Agreements take many years to negotiate and the European Union negotiations regarding China have been going on since 1985 and is still to be concluded fully.

The EU is a very powerful Bloc organisation when it comes to such negotiations and will not drop its standards and protections in such.

How then is Britain on its own going to fare in trying to negotiate such agreements as I feel that powerful countries such as China and the United States will insist that Britain lower its standards and protections to obtain trade agreements with countries such as them?

That will be to the detriment of all but a powerful few who reside in this country.

Anyway, of to the office now, see you later.

Thank you for addressing my point growstuff and Monica. Slightly different opinions, but that’s to be expected.
This subject has been discussed ad nauseas on Gransnet and other places. Certainly on Gransnet very few seem to have changed their minds, myself being one of them. I just can’t see the point of continuing to discuss this over and over, in particular because it has been demanded of leavers over and again as to why they voted leave, and their reasons have been rubbished many times. Some remainers demand these explanations over and over again and leavers reply they have stated their reasons and are sick to the back teeth of doing so. Some start threads it appears to me, simply to be confrontational, some want to argue apparently. At times I have wondered if they’ve got nothing better to do than argue all day long online.
Nothing that is said on here is going to change the outcome, so therefore it’s pointless to keep on arguing and sometimes being very disrespectful to other posters. There are other threads of course, which I look at, but some of the remainers on here never appear on another thread. At the end of the day, no one has the right to demand explanations from other posters about why they voted as they did. Asking the question repeatedly serves no purpose other than to try to needle other people who don’t agree with you. Maybe we will all have the opportunity to vote again soon in an election.

typo ad nauseum

Well said maddy

I've never actually seen any valid reasons maddyone - certainly not on GN.

Yes, they do have the right to ask questions, just as you have the right to refuse to answer.

growstuff just because a reason is not valid to you, doesn't necessarily mean it is not valid to someone else..........really can you not see the problem??????

Some reasons that remainers give to remain are not valid to me growstuff, but at 5he end of the day, we are both entitled to our own opinions.

M0nica you seem to be describing the people who are reporting what politicians have said about the sort of society they envisage, as "ridiculous". I am not sure why you see those who report what some consider an outrageous view of the future as taking on some of the horror and disbelief you may feel for those outcomes. It seems ill thought through to blame the messenger.

It is also puerile, pompous and arrogant to repeat the "calm down" quote. Who on earth do you think you are?

M0nica 08:47:33
A sensible and balanced point of view especially regarding the laws which will continue to benefit us when (or if) we leave the EU.

GGMK3 I think a little "calmness" on the News & Political threads is a good idea.

If we all took a deep breath, and read our posts several times before hitting "send", then maybe there would be discussion instead of the same old ridicule and rhetoric.

You may think so GG13 and if you do it is perfectly reasonable to say so in that abstract fashion.

Surely we all know that the arrogance of "Calm down dear" set out to insult and depreciate individuals and was never acceptable.

Pantglas2 Mon 28-Oct-19 19:16:23 I would love to be mindful of your viewpoint, please tell me what it is? How will you and your family be better off if we leave the EU? Thanks

I like rich tea.

maddyone Mon 28-Oct-19 23:51:22 I must have missed the 'demands' although I have noticed many polite requests which is absolutely normal on this and other social media. Yes, I have asked friends and they have given me their answers, why wouldn't they? I simply cannot understand why anyone would come on such a thread if they didn't have an opinion to share, what is the point? Please don't assume we have all read all the threads, I haven't, I stop when they get very confrontational and irrational. This may well be why I haven't seen the reasons so I would appreciate it if you, or another would enlighten me please. I did have one response which I didn't take seriously because the poster said that the Eastern Europeans were undercutting their business. I couldn't see how that would change if we left the EU.

maddyone
From the responses following your earlier post, your point is well proven ?

I’ve no idea Nonnie but as I didn’t vote I’m happy to wait and see rather than attack people who don’t agree with me!

all the EU law passed in the 40 years we were a member have already been officially incorporated into British law through an Act of Parliament, so any subsequent changes away from EU will have to be debated and agreed before any change is made

Have you looked at the extent of the Henry VIII powers in the WAB, MOnica? These give ministers the power to change any part of legislation without any reference to Parliament.

A couple of articles here, but there are plenty more to be found.

The same criticism was made of May's Withdrawal Bill, too.
ukconstitutionallaw.org/2019/10/24/adam-tucker-a-first-critical-look-at-the-scrutiny-of-delegated-legislation-in-the-withdrawal-agreement-bill/

infacts.org/johnson-tries-power-grab-worthy-of-henry-viii/

Nonnie, a request becomes a demand when the requester writes that they’ve asked leavers, or a certain leaver, for their reasons why they voted leave, and because the leavers are sick to the back teeth of being asked to justify their position, the requester takes umbrage and says the leaver hasn’t responded to her/his request. I’m sorry Nonnie but I have seen countless demands that Leavers justify their position. My point is that they don’t have to, voting is personal and private.

I have also seen countless reasons from leavers on Gransnet as to why they voted as they did. They don’t have to justify it, neither do remainers. No one has to justify how they vote in any referendum or election.

You are wise to dip out if the thread becomes confrontational. You’ve also accepted that some threads become confrontational. I often drop out then too, especially if the thread becomes dominated by a few staunch remainers.

I’m past being partisan on Brexit, I accept we are 99% certain to leave the EU and I’ll make the best of it. The EU have accepted it as well but they really don’t want a cliff edge no deal exit, so the Withdrawal Agreement is written to take account of all possibilities, any changes will take place over time.

It may be a close Free Trade deal that Labour might prefer or a much harder arrangement involving lots of tariffs in both directions. Depending who with and when will determine the agreements, any ideas that we will be free of EU influence is fantasy, it’s going to get really complicated