Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

And don't get me started on Nicola Sturgeon bringing up Scottish independence at a time like this.

When I see things like this, first I get angry and then I get disappointed. I don't know where people get this but as so many people have said upthread, Nicola has hardly mentioned independence since this whole pandemic disaster started. But the unionist press keep trying to say it's her only focus, because it suits their agenda.

And then, do you all think that we only think about independence when Nicola reminds us it's a thing? Give us some credit.

I'll be nice Flicker seeing as you've had a G&T ?.

We're not one country. Scotland has been an independent country and remains different from the rest of the UK in important ways. We were not conquered and entered into a Union voluntarily (sort of). It's been a long time since Yorkshire or Kendall had their own legal, health or educational systems, if ever.

I can't speak for other parts of the UK but most people I know who want independence don't want it because we dislike anybody else, it's because we want to stand in our own two feet.

@Alegrias1 I appreciate everything you have said, and I know I am a lone voice, but I honestly do not understand why we have to have so much distrust, disparity, dislike......
I know you are an independent country, i just do not know whynwe cannot all rub along together. We all inhabit a relatively small,island. Wecare not a far flung and disparate state. We all speak the same language ( broadly speaking......), we mostly have the same aims and attitudes.
I live a few miles south of the border. I feel disenfranchised. I feel abandoned, living up,here in the north.
I have no doubt my counterparts in Devon, Blackpool, Birmingham and Norfolk will feel the same.
But, as a small island, why can we not pull,together? Why do we always have to push each other away? Why do we create difficulties, why do we believe every difficulty every transgression is personal to us ?

I think I am probably a 'hug a bunny' type of person. I just hate the current culture that pits nation against nation, young against old, rich against poor and London against the rest......

Anyhow, bestvwishes to everyone, and lets hope for a happier 2021?

Flicker, I know what you mean, and agree with you.

If we are going to base loyalties on history then there used to be numerous kingdoms, Mercia, Wessex, Cumbria, Northumbria and so on - the same in what is now Scotland and Wales. Each led by someone who was basically a gang leader with an army of bully boys behind him. The ones who won drew up borders and boundaries of 'their' land.

Why people now feel that they 'belong' to the land that is within these boundaries is illogical, although it is clearly an emotional and deeply felt tie.

A sensible government would be trying to unite the UK (and this includes all the regions in all nations, and bringing us all together - particularly as we have now cut ourselves off from Europe.

@Doodledog, I heard today that Doncaster actually belongs to Scotland?
Therefore, as a Northumbrian, I am claiming dual nationality?

Flicker

@Doodledog, I heard today that Doncaster actually belongs to Scotland?
Therefore, as a Northumbrian, I am claiming dual nationality?

We can always put the border at Newcastle ? You'd be welcome to join us, I'm sure. Nice people are always welcome ?

lemongrove

I always assumed that you were American Summerlove,
From something or other you once said. We do seem to have a few posters from across the pond nowadays, which is nice.

Not american thank goodness. What a mess it is there

Very interesting thread.
I notice a couple of comments that nicola sturgeon has been concentrating on independence etc during the pandemic. When ? Genuine question.
I’m guessing she will have mentioned it in the same way as Boris Johnson has spoken of other things than the pandemic ?

Doodledog the early medieval kingdoms of England are nothing like Scotland, sorry. Scotland was an independent country up until 1707. We started with the warlords like you say, but ended with Renaissance monarchs whose links to Europe were as close as our links to England. We had, and mostly retain, our own civil society and systems such as the legal one, which differentiates us significantly from rUK. Wessex, Mercia and so on were incorporated into England a long time ago.

Casdon

I think you’re missing the point Summerlove, Welsh people, in the South at least, do not see the need for the Welsh language to be the dominant language. There’s little opposition to it being taught in school, and it’s used for things like singing the national anthem, rugby songs, hello and goodbye etc.

It’s a big leap from that to it becoming the dominant language, and most Welsh people have no desire for that to happen, and many are annoyed about it being pushed. The use of Welsh as the first language at home is a key indicator of whether it is growing as a language, and there’s little evidence to suggest that is happening. Ultimately, the political will cannot force people to do what they don’t want to in this respect in the modern world. I picked up in the Welsh news last week that parents who had sent their children to Welsh speaking primary schools (which are often very good) were complaining because they can’t help them with their homework during lockdown.

I don’t know obviously, but imagine that there are similar feelings in Scotland and Ireland about Gaelic.

Goodness. I’ve written three points all to be deleted into the ether.

Thank you for explaining your point so eloquently. I understand the frustration, for English only speakers, but I also keenly understand bilingualism and it’s need for keeping culture alive.

I also know that when a language is not the dominant one that in order to help keep bilingualism high, or get it there, you need to be constantly exposed to it. Hence street signs and television.

My original point was how silly it seemed to complain about the use of welsh in Wales. As though English has always been dominant, and always should be.

Callistemon

Yes, Wales is in England.

What??

I do hope you are promoting the resurgence of indigenous American languages, Summerlove.

As I live nowhere near any areas where this is an issue, no I don’t promote it.

I certainly support it.

Shame she was mentioned at all Lucca, I was hoping to get the feelings of us, the people of the different nations, without mention of the politicians.

I’m Welsh currently living in England albeit not too far from the Scottish border. I lived in Wales for most of my adult life and most of my family still live there. Although we are all proud of our Welsh heritage we do not want to be separated from the rest of the UK. I really don’t understand this nationalism. Surely we are stronger when we are united? It’s not as if we can’t have our own traditions, language and culture. The only reason I can come up with is that it is for political reasons and everyone wants to be ‘top dog’ . Also the consequences of separation could mean a border between Scotland and England in the event of Scotland re-joining the EU. Absolutely crazy!

Alegrias1

Doodledog the early medieval kingdoms of England are nothing like Scotland, sorry. Scotland was an independent country up until 1707. We started with the warlords like you say, but ended with Renaissance monarchs whose links to Europe were as close as our links to England. We had, and mostly retain, our own civil society and systems such as the legal one, which differentiates us significantly from rUK. Wessex, Mercia and so on were incorporated into England a long time ago.

Yes, I know - but my point is that it all depends on how far back you want to go, and on what you base your nationalism.

A small island like ours would be better sticking together, IMO; but that is only going to work if all regions, countries and citizens are treated equally.

I generally think the same way as you Gwyneth, but several posters today have made me think hard about how they feel.
I would be very sad to see the break up of the union but I really do feel if I were a Scot I would want independence.
I hope changes can be made so that Scotland can choose and if they choose independence they will also choose to be closely allied to the remaining nations of the union.

I think we’re actually broadly in agreement Summerlove, I’m in favour of keeping the Welsh language alive, children having the opportunity to be taught in Welsh, and it being compulsory for them to learn it in school, and I’d hazard a guess most Welsh people feel the same. The difficulty comes when it’s promoted as the only option, and is by law first in every announcement, publication etc., when such a low percentage of the population have it as their first language, or wish to.

I agree completely on the road signs, it is dangerous to have Welsh first on directional signs.

I agree Casdon. My sons had to learn through the medium of Welsh . I would have preferred the option of learning through the medium of English and having Welsh language classes.

I imagine road signs in Welsh first are a nightmare for European lorry drivers.

Ok, so as a Scot I’m answering the original question (having skimmed the rest of the thread after a couple of glasses of red).

I have not historically been an SNP supporter, the reason I want to have an independent Scotland has nothing to do with not liking English folks. What I object to is that my vote makes absolutely no difference in a general election because I’m Scottish. My entire country could vote for a party (let’s face it - we have done this) and that has zero bearing on how the national government represents my beliefs or needs. And that’s just basic maths.

I am not a huge SNP fan, however would (like many others I have in my circle of friends) support them to gain independence and then would evaluate the Scottish parties available for me to vote for.

I would not be be adverse to some sort of federal system. What I do object to is the national agenda being set by a posh public school boy (lets forget about May dancing through the wheat fields for a minute) whose focus is and has been for at least the last two decades Londoncentric.

Now I’m a humanitarian so I think folk in London should have a lovely life - does that reflect, resemble or affect my life up here!? No should be the answer, reality is mehhh probably it does.

I feel Scottish, British, I admire the Royal Family and I respect my neighbours down south and to the west. But every nation should (IMO) have national sovereignty. Just because there’s only 6 millionish of us doesn’t mean that our choices, voices or viewpoints are any less valid, but under our current voting system that’s how it feels to me.
I know that the same could be argued for NW England etc, but as I said before - I like my neighbours, so come on up and join us!!

Alegrias1

Flicker

@Doodledog, I heard today that Doncaster actually belongs to Scotland?
Therefore, as a Northumbrian, I am claiming dual nationality?

We can always put the border at Newcastle ? You'd be welcome to join us, I'm sure. Nice people are always welcome ?

I'd prefer it if you could put the border between County Durham and Yorkshire, please.

But joking apart, I don't feel any particular attachment to 'the union' and if Scotland wants independence then I'm perfectly happy for them to have it. It wouldn't make me feel any differently towards them and I can't see that it should cause any problems for movement between the two countries.

I have seen convincing evidence that they could be financially independent; there are huge questions over the way that money is currently allocated between Scotland and the rest of the UK, i.e. that it's rather an inexact science which favours the English over the Scots.

If they wanted their own currency it would be fine. After all, we're perfectly used to managing different currencies between countries; we'd get used to it.

I do think that with a PR system in the UK the Scots would get better representation, but they're possibly past that now.

I find it rather ironic that it's mostly Brexit supporters who appear to be against the idea of Scottish independence...

My original point was how silly it seemed to complain about the use of welsh in Wales. As though English has always been dominant, and always should be.

No-one is complaining about the use of Welsh in Wales but, as English is spoken by all but a few and only about 19% are properly bilingual, why is Welsh dominating official communications in the form of letters and telephone calls from official bodies, notices in all public buildings including the NHS and road signs?
People are finding it difficult to listen to or find the written English vital information.

My DGC learn Welsh at school as it is compulsory and the level taught to GCSE level is basic unless the children go to Welsh language schools.
We know someone whose children go to a Welsh speaking school but neither parent speaks Welsh so yes, they are struggling to help with online learning although the mother is a teacher.

I'm English, and I won't pretend to be an expert in this, but as far as I'm aware, England did not 'foist' the union on poor old Scotland. The current king of Scotland inherited the throne of England and therefore decided to join the countries together. If anything, we had Scotland foisted on us.

Yes, I accept that most of the decision-making goes on in London, but every country has a central government. Perhaps York or somewhere would be a more central location, but the decision to run the unified country from London was not a decision made by the English, but by their Scottish king.

I am not in favour of Scottish independence.

And that is because the last Welsh monarch had no issue, Dragonella!

I'm afraid that's wrong, Dragonella. King James VIth of Scotland & Ist of England succeeded to the English throne in 1603.

Scotland and England remained separate sovereign states until the Act of Union in 1707. 100 years later. I think the Scots were rather forced into it by bankruptcy...

I wish we could just all get on,we have more to gain by supporting and working with each other. I find Nicola Sturgeon very confrontational, she is controlled but you can sense the resentment in tone and she never misses a chance to put Engand down, Scotland has quite a large amount of money from us, if that were to stop with Independance and they completely managed their finances including National Insurance etc. How to you work out how much each individual in Scotland is owed, would try want their own Queen Nicola? I have found my friends from over the border very friendly and welcoming and not one bit bothered about Independance lots travelling here for work and family living here, there really isn't any big divide, theyvhavevtgeir wn customs and ways and that is all to the good. . A very large part of Scotland is uninhabited with far flung remote villages, I doubt life would change much for them anyway.