Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

The uk is very small, why make it even smaller? I always thought Ireland should be united because it seems ridiculous not to be but to have Scotland as a separate country seems even worse. Now I have quite a bit of Scottish blood though I have never lived there but still it would seem so hard to muck around with borders and customs and that rubbish. Good assertive politicians who don’t let the South part of the country walk all over them seems a better proposition.

I agree with you Sparkling but apparently we aren’t allowed to mention Nicola Sturgeon on this thread.
I also agree with you Dragonella in that Scottish royalty were happy to accept the throne of both countries and later to accept the Union.There was no ‘war’ forcing them into it.
There shouldn’t be a further referendum for years as the SNP promised it would be a once in a generation vote.....but if the next vote is to leave the Union the so be it, I expect they will manage and so will we.

I entirely agree nanna8. The pro independence lobby is voluble and loud. It's worth attaching the illustration demonstrating the voting of the silent majority in the 'once in a generation' referendum held only 6 years ago.
I can't imagine the state Scotland would have been in without the backing of the union during this terrible time of the pandemic. Most of us are grateful for it and glad to know it was there.

Lemongrove re nicola sturgeon, I was hoping for an answer to my query
“ I notice a couple of comments that nicola sturgeon has been concentrating on independence etc during the pandemic. When ? Genuine question.
I’m guessing she will have mentioned it in the same way as Boris Johnson has spoken of other things than the pandemic ?

lemongrove

I agree with you Sparkling but apparently we aren’t allowed to mention Nicola Sturgeon on this thread.
I also agree with you Dragonella in that Scottish royalty were happy to accept the throne of both countries and later to accept the Union.There was no ‘war’ forcing them into it.
There shouldn’t be a further referendum for years as the SNP promised it would be a once in a generation vote.....but if the next vote is to leave the Union the so be it, I expect they will manage and so will we.

Your grasp of history is rather tenuous, lemon.

'Scottish royalty' succeeded to the English throne by right of inheritance. It wasn't offered to them, it wasn't a case of 'acceptance', it was theirs by right. In fact, it was thought by some that James had more 'right' to it than had his predecessor as there was no question over the legitimacy of his birth.

The 'Scottish monarch' who presided over the Act of Union was also rather dodgy as she was the daughter of the legitimate, but deposed, king and ruled in place of his legitimate heir.

To add insult to injury, once queen Anne died the Scots had to accept the Hanoverian monarchy whose Stuart connection was somewhat dilute.. Not all Scots were happy about it (nor some English) ; I hope you've heard of the Jacobite Risings...

I really feel some Anglocentric arrogance showing in some of the posts on this topic. I don't, to my knowledge, have a drop of Scottish blood in me, but I feel more and more drawn to their 'cause'.

All this nonsense about 'working together' and not breaking up an already small unit is just that, nonsense.

Great post MaizieD.

I'd like to add as well that the Act of Union followed a period of famine in Scotland when the English Parliament blocked trade with Scotland unless it negotiated on Union. The English Parliament was expansionist and threatened by the ties between Scotland and other European nations, especially the Netherlands (Sound familiar?)

Union was not popular with the people but certain members of the Scottish parliament profited individually from bribery with one, the Duke of Queensbury, getting 60% of the whole monetary settlement with Scotland.

Parcel o' rogues, the lot of them.

As I Brexit supporter, maybe I’m going against the flow here but I can quite understand the intense feelings in Scotland of maybe just over half of Scottish people to want independence. I get it. David Cameron was so sure Remain would win in the referendum that he dangled that carrot in front of Scottish voters, telling them the best way to stay in the EU was to vote Remain. We all know how that ended up.

So Scottish voters, who voted to Remain now feel doubly aggrieved. I don’t blame them. Wanting independence can be a very strong emotion. I completely understand it.

It’s just that I hope they won’t leave the Union. I like that everyone on this beautiful island is a UK. it is so wonderful here, it’s the reason so many illegal immigrants want to reach these shores when they could safely stay in Europe on their long haul trip.

I do think that the island of Ireland may well re-unite. I think prosperity matters more to the younger generation there now with unfettered flow across Ireland to trade than the old mindset of sectarian divisions. We shall see in 4 years’ time.

Sparkling A couple of mistakes in your post.
The quite a large amount of money you refer to is the amount that would have been spent from Wesrminster in Scotland on the things which are now devolved and administered from Holyrood, proportionately to the population. In return quite a large amount is paid into Westminster coffers from the taxes of Scottish people. That means that Scottish taxes pay for Scottish devolved expenses.

The Scottish Government estimates that around £65 billion-£66 billion of revenues were raised in Scotland in 2019/20, equivalent to approximately £11,940-£12,060 per head.

Spend per head by region, 2019-20

North East £10,285
North West £10,204
Yorkshire and the Humber £9,401
East Midlands £8,879
West Midlands £9,570
East £8,991
London £10,835
South East £8,919
South West £9,193
England (average) £9,604
Scotland £11,566
Wales £10,929
Northern Ireland £11,987
UK (average) £9,895

As for wanting a "Queen Nicola!" What a weird idea. I have never heard even a whisper of anything of the sort, and I can't imagine any Scot wanting to turn her into any such thing.

Lovely map Jane10, but a bit misleading. The results of the 2014 referendum were not based on constituencies but on total votes cast, so the little pie chart top left is more representative of the actual result. Results of a more up to date poll are attached.

I'd prefer to see a threshold, maybe 60%? to prevent any squabbling over "silent majorities" and the results of any future referendum.

Or we could just declare UDI ?

Being in a different country to our friends, neighbours, family. Loss of years of shared systems

I don't understand this comment. Scotland is not moving further away. It is not going to float off to relocate between NZ & Australia. Contact via phone, internet, (and when the pandemic has been overcome -travel) will continue as usual.

As to shared systems, I would cite the carry on and expense I have had trying to get England Based Bank and Stockbroker to recognise my Scottish POA and release DH's savings to pay his care home fees. All because they insisted that they only operated under UK - i,e, English Law. I'm now having the same palaver in resolving his minuscule estate because they are demanding full probate (going to cost circa £1000) which would not be necessary under Scots Law. My solicitor says that these problems crop up all the time as London based financiers cannot accept that English Law does not apply throughout the UK.

Sparkling said A very large part of Scotland is uninhabited
I would refute that - sparsely populated perhaps in some areas, but surely that is a good thing, allowing space to breath, get away from it all, explore, for leisure, to site wind farms/hydro schemes, etc. With modern technology no where is truly remote.

I am a Londoner but have lived in Scotland since 1976. I cannot understand those that want an Independant Scotland. We have had 10 years of SNP in government and what do we have? Education in decline, roads full of pot holes, a health service in disarray, projects such as the Edinburgh trams, New Forth bridge and the new children's hospital over budget and not fit for purpose. To top it all at a time when the nations health is at huge risk our political leaders seem more interested in Independance than the successful and timely roll out of the vaccine programme (funded by the UK government). I cannot think of one advantage of breaking away from Westminster - where would the money come from? Bravehearts think again!!

SUPPORTING INDEPENDENCE DOES NOT EQUAL AN SNP GOVERNMENT IN PERPETUITY.

I know I'm shouting. Bold type next.

The Queensferry Crossing (that's its name) was not over budget. Best planned and executed project I've seen anywhere for a long time.

Bravehearts. Dear God!

What about Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles? They voted to stay in the Independence Referendum of 2014, and more lately have voiced wanting their own independence separately from Scotland.

It is very strange on the one hand you have globalisation with nations wanting to surrender their independence and then on the other you have tribalism with everyone wanting their own individual groups.

The Queensferry crossing has had to close umpteen times due to icing problems. It's completion was delayed and it has had to be repaired several times.
Re the question of Sturgeon not promoting independence : if she's so busy on the pandemic how did she find time to produce her recent 11 steps to independence plan?
Alegrias in the catastrophic event of Scotland voting for independence, and its not to be run by SNP, then by whom? Who would sort out the break up from 400 year old union given that brexit seemed so hard? Which economic brain would work out how the economy would with having to have a new currency far less the inevitable capital flight? There has been a great deal of blustery talk and wishful thinking but no actual details about the bottom line : money, where it would come from, how pensions and benefits would work in the light of the likely collapse of the economy etc
Alegrias have you looked at the state of southern Ireland in the decades immediately after partition? They were in dire straits for many years.

It isn't strange at all, polarisation causes polarisation. When you have extremism to one extreme, you get extremism to the other extreme.

Globalisation and the absorption of one culture, one company, one nation, into a larger conglomerate increases the opposite view, that each culture, company, nation, is separate and distinct, and brings to the fore the desire not to vanish into an amorphous soup.

It is very strange on the one hand you have globalisation with nations wanting to surrender their independence and then on the other you have tribalism with everyone wanting their own individual groups.

That's what happens when you base decisions on nationalism. And English exceptionalism.

I'm finding all this stuff about 'working together' quite nauseating in view of the fact that a predominantly English vote has pulled us out of a unique union for what is becoming very clearly nationalistic reasons. (All this jingoism about how we beat the EU over vaccines just illustrates it). Why should voters who happily took the benefits of Free Movement in Europe away be worried about losing Free Movement in Scotland? Why should Scotland be trapped with the country which took away something they valued? A country, what is more, that clearly thinks it is its colonial master?

Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles also voted to Remain in Europe.
And the one or two voices calling for them to be independent from Scotland do not reflect a widespread view.

Just a thought but if Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP do manage to get a referendum shouldn’t everyone in the UK be allowed to vote? After all this will affect everyone living in the UK to a degree. I have many friends living in Southern Ireland and they have all said that if there was a referendum re a United Ireland they would most definitely want to be given the opportunity to vote on this as well as those living in Northern Ireland.

Jane10 - There is an election planned for May. Whether it goes ahead or not remains to be seen, with the state of the pandemic. All the parties have to create manifestos, and the SNP one includes the roadmap for independence. I don't think that's a surprise.

Who’ll run Scotland if we achieve independence? Whoever it is we vote for. Posters upthread have said how voting SNP now is a means to an end for achieving independence, not a way of giving the SNP power over Scotland forever. However if people have concern that after independence the electorate keep on returning an SNP government, well that says more about their view that the electorate don’t know what they’ve voting for and aren’t to be trusted with running their own country. That’s not good.

Who would sort out the separation for the 300 year union? (not 400). Well the proposition for 2014 was a transition team with representatives from both the Union and Scotland and from all political persuasions. Not all negotiations have to be confrontational, like Brexit was. And if some think there is no-one is Scotland capable of being part of that, well that just indicates what they think of their fellow citizens. Best give it to Westminster, they know what they’re doing. We’re too wee, too poor, too stupid.

Partition in Ireland was 100 years ago, and it followed a war of independence. I think we’ve moved on.

I’m not being diverted by a discussion about the bridge. Read this. 8% below budget and effectively managed. Not everything in Scotland is a disaster, despite what some try to say.
www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/uploads/docs/report/2018/nr_180802_forth_crossing.pdf

If Scotland achieved independence would all funding from Westminster stop? Just to be clear would any of my taxes be paid to an independent Scotland?

Gwyneth

If Scotland achieved independence would all funding from Westminster stop? Just to be clear would any of my taxes be paid to an independent Scotland?

I suggest you re-read Elegran's post of 9.54.

Alegrais1 - the Queensferry Crossing has to be closed on cold days because of falling ice! The new Edinburgh children's hospital cannot be open due to issues with the construction (but is costing a fortune under contract). The Edinburgh trams ran vastly over budget with some planned areas being axed. Even the Scottish parliament building was over budget with very costly upkeep for a building unsuited to the Scottish climate. The shipyard contract was a total shambles. I
could go on and on! (I won't mention the Alex Salmond debackle!)

My grasp of history is just fine thanks MaizieD I gave the shortened version ( not everyone on the forum enjoys being lectured)?
Nothing I said was wrong/ untrue. It was the right of James to take the English and Scottish thrones and he was happy to
Accept it. Scottish nobility were happy to accept the Union later on.
Time to move on I would have thought.....I can’t imagine anyone in Scotland today is interested in such old history, rather they ( some) have been convinced they should no longer be allied to the UK but become a vassal of Germany and France ( they run the show, after all.)

Are you blaming Nicola and the SNP because it gets cold in Scotland in winter?

Does Scotland really want another angry divisive referendum
I wonder? It really set neighbour against neighbour in many places.