The fear women live with

The Radio 4 discussion has provoked a much needed discussion which shifts the onus from the need for women to 'take care of themselves' to the need for men to take responsibility for their actions and attitudes which cause these assaults. This has to begin with education and challenging assumptions which begin in childhood - that girls and women are 'less than' men. Parents should not tolerate these attitudes in their sons, boys should understand that they must 'call out' such behaviour within their peer group. World wide and over thousands of years this negativity has been normalized by patriarchal societies. There is much work to do and 'Grans' can play their part.

There were so many numpties on Twitter saying things like, "What was she doing walking on Clapham Common?" (though she wasn't actually abducted there) as if being out and about at 9 pm made it HER fault. Also, telling women to stay off the streets is another form of potential victim-blaming, isn't it?
Always, ALWAYS, when most women are out alone they have to consider the "What if..?" factor. I never walk from the bus stop to home at night without putting keys and phone in a pocket (in case of bag theft) and an attack alarm in my hand. I hate that I feel I have to do this, and always to keep an eye on who is also on my quiet lane on way home. But you just have to.
And it's all very well to say, oh but it's rare. Of course it is but that doesn't make it any less frightening out there.

WWM2 re your OP and your post above, in what way can hearing more experiences of violence against women help you to feel less troubled by it?

I ask because I have lots I'd like to say but don't want to hit the wrong note. I can certainly add to the list of lived experiences but I feel that may just increase the despair women feel as it becomes overwhelming. You said that something must be done, are you interested in thoughts on that?

I am not interested in reading examples of men’s experiences of violence perpetrated by other men.

So when you stated Yes men are subject to violence, but can you name a man that this happened to? Men suffer violence but largely for entirely different reasons, associated with their lifestyle etc.., did you expect everyone just to accept your version of events?

I actually find your judgement on the lifestyle of innocent male victims every bit as wrong as questioning what women wear, what perceived risks they take, etc.

Except that in this case the suspect is a serving police officer which may cause more disquiet.
The advice to anyone but especially women has not changed for decades now, it has always been , make sure someone knows where you are going, be aware of your surroundings and if you think someone is following you go to a public place or a shop or a house with lights on etc
I was also told to carry keys in my hand with a key between my fingers as a weapon if absolutely necessary and always look in the back seat of the car before getting in and always lock the doors and in city areas to put your handbag and valuables behind the passenger seat to stop smash and grab at traffic lights

So you can name one woman , but how many men? . Please don’t pretend women are an equal threat to men as vice versa.

Sport got sidetracked and didn't answer the question about women and fear of going out alone. I was attacked in my workplace where I had to work till 10pm alone I managed to alert a passerby and my attacker ran away. . The works policy was revised after this.
I was followed home one night but sought the help of another man walking in front of me and evaded my stalker. The man who had followed me was arrested 2 days later for raping 2 women. I have never felt safe on my own outside at night, and would never walk home by myself.
Its awful that we have to do this. This is not going to change. The only solution is a curfew on men on the streets at night, with police strolling and that's never going to happen. I taught my sons and grandsons to be aware of not alarming women on their own at night by walking behind them etc. I don't think there will ever be a solution, do would always advise women not to put themselves in danger.

Sadly 'twas ever thus'. If you ever read historical novels, accounts of life in the past and read any poetry you will find that women and girls have never been safe from the fear (and reality) of men accosting, attacking, raping or abducting them.

Wealthy women had chaperones, never walked anywhere alone and only in daylight and in busy streets and of course the poorer women were always bore the brunt of it because of their need to work and not able to afford personal transport.

In many other countries the control of women has stemmed from the need to protect them from the attentions of other men and is often welcomed by the women as they feel safer in same sex groups.

It seems this is an age old problem but I agree that it is a terrible thing that we don't even feel safe taking a stroll, being in an empty street or railway compartment or being out after dusk.

It seems that many men still see women as objects or possessions and are only there to satisfy their urges or to vent their anger or frustrations upon. I was cheered to hear that some men also understand this and take steps to move aside or walk past on the other side of the road to make it easier for women

And yes, young men are much more likely (statistically) to be attacked (both my sons have suffered attacks) but they don't seem to live with the constant fear of harassment like women and girls do

Surely we should all take responsibilities for our safety. I live in a university city with several parks and a very large common area. People will walk on their own in these isolated spots at all times when there is no daylight. It is frightening during daylight and even worse ar night. There are accounts of people being attacked weekly. Yet nothing changes. It is not possible to make these areas safe

Sheilasue

I would like to remind you that young black men are killed every day by other young black men, there is this horrific culture in this country.
My son was killed in a domestic violence situation.
Woman are beaten in their homes. Children are abused beaten and so are babies.

We all know about this, of course. But why the diversion to mention it? It rather smacks of "what about the men.." which ALWAYS crops up on social media whenever the discussion is about women. It's a young woman we're talking about here, not the murderous aspects of gang culture.

My daughter is particularly horrified by this. I believe the road that this young woman was walking along was the South Circular - a very busy and well lit road. We have friends and relatives who live close by and my daughter and her friends have walked here many times. It may be a relatively rare occurence but it just brings violence. closer to us.

That wasn’t what I was saying vegansrock.
WWW said name one, as if it wasn’t possible, but Joanna Dehenny immediately sprang to mind and then I googled “Women murderers” and there was a long list.

The trouble with impassioned but inaccurate statements is that the subsequent challenge, that shows them to be exaggerated, then throws doubt on anything that is said and gives those opposing a handle mock the whole thing.

It really doesn’t help. You’re usually someone that likes a nice fact and accuracy.

My daughter works in a nursing home and walks the two mile or so home at 10pm . I say to her things like make sure you walk where it’s well lit and on the main road where there are houses and cars passing , there is a short cut for her but it’s on a tree lined lane with no houses and shielded from view , I have made her promise never to walk that way . Had it been my son I’m not sure I would of given the same advice

Maggiemaybe

^I am not interested in reading examples of men’s experiences of violence perpetrated by other men.^

So when you stated Yes men are subject to violence, but can you name a man that this happened to? Men suffer violence but largely for entirely different reasons, associated with their lifestyle etc.., did you expect everyone just to accept your version of events?

I actually find your judgement on the lifestyle of innocent male victims every bit as wrong as questioning what women wear, what perceived risks they take, etc.

I am not interested in this thread - does that help?

Start a thread about the lived experiences of men and the violence, death rape harassment they experience every day and I will contribute, but I am not interested in being diverted to discuss men’s issues on this thread.

Yes men are subject to violence, but can you name a man that this happened to?

Unfortunately, I can. However, statistically it is more likely to happen to a woman than a man. I wouldn't let my daughter walk home alone at night or in a isolated place when she was younger and I wouldn't do it myself. I just wouldn't take the chance unless it was absolutely necessary.
When my daughter was old enough to drive to work, there was a rapist preying on woman on Thursday nights. She only had to walk from the cinema where she worked, to the car park but it was late at night. One night she had a run in with a man who was threatening to clamp her car. She had a male colleague with her on that occasion but she said he made her feel really uneasy and was glad her colleague had been with her. All the girls were aware of him and didn't like his manner. It turned out it was Lee Bellfield. Strangely enough, the Thursday rapes stopped after he moved from the area although no link has ever been made to him.
Living in an area where there is an uncaught rapist certainly makes you think twice about how safe you might be.

Peasblossom

That wasn’t what I was saying vegansrock.
WWW said name one, as if it wasn’t possible, but Joanna Dehenny immediately sprang to mind and then I googled “Women murderers” and there was a long list.

The trouble with impassioned but inaccurate statements is that the subsequent challenge, that shows them to be exaggerated, then throws doubt on anything that is said and gives those opposing a handle mock the whole thing.

It really doesn’t help. You’re usually someone that likes a nice fact and accuracy.

This thread is about women’s lived experiences and possible answers to the problem.

This isn’t about facts.

I lived in South Africa until I was 20. I remember a lot of newspaper reports about women being attacked and the attacker always got off if he said the woman was dressed in a short skirt as that was thought to be a provocation and she was "asking for it."
Some years ago when I lived in Dorset I used to walk my big white Alsatian dog after work in nearby woods, sometimes even as it was growing dark. I used to love the evening sounds of the birds going to their roosts. I never felt scared as I had my big dog with me. I would not have gone without him though.
Sheilasue, my sympathies for your son.

Wow. You’re not interested in truth. In what actually happens. Wow!

I can’t think of anything else to say, Wow.

Is it really that rare? Leah Crochers parents still do not know what has happened to her and I am sure there are many other cases. I am pretty sure, from my own experience and that of others, a lot of predatory male behaviour from strangers goes unreported too. I live very rurally and I have even been followed on a dog walk, I doubt I'm alone.

Leah Croucher

Why should anyone believe anything that women say about their experiences when the originator of this thread says she’s not interested in truth.

No wonder we can’t get other people to take us seriously and they were exaggerating.

Here’s written proof fir them that they’re right?

But the fact remains men are the perpetrators in the vast majority of cases - it’s men’s behaviour that needs to be addressed. Not women’s.

I think talking about something is the first step in trying to make change, I think Male violence is just something that we have all learned to live with, like a background noise.

Truly WWW and others. Can’t you see the damage that you do?

97 % of violent sexual assault is perpetrated by men. Is that ok for you peasblossom.