I do wonder- is this what the Brexiters wanted?

Urmstongran

I do care growstuff but if that’s how Macron wants to play it (annoying the hell out of his own citizens in the process) there’s not much can be done about it. The voters in France could perhaps lobby their MP’s pointing out how displeased they are? However I still maintain it only affects a small proportion of visitors so nothing will be done about it.

It's not just Macron, it's the whole of the EU because the UK is now a third country and the rules that are in place apply to all countries outside the EU. They may not necessarily be enforced but that's another story.

The French will be used to the rules because they were (pre covid) the top of the list for international tourist arrivals. It's just us Brits who are not used to it.

And, I'll ask you again, Peasblossom

HAS LEAVING THE EU IMPROVED THEIR LIVES?

(sorry, I have to shout because people don't seem to hear me the first time round)

you say Peasblossom doesn't know what you think, yet claim to know what many who voted for Brexit thought at the time Alegrias.

I'm assuming you don't know where Peasblossom lives so are in no position to judge whether those who voted leave in her area didn't vote for the reasons she has given.

I knew exactly why I voted for Brexit and it had nothing to do with falsehoods.

There are posters who've complained about the difference Brexit will make to them accessing their holiday homes so no need to tell Peasblossom to "get a grip".

YES ?

MaizieD

^I wonder if you’d accept that whilst you and many other benefitted from membership of the EU, a large number of peoples’ experience was that their lives had changed for the worse.^

And have their lives now changed for the better?

I very much doubt it.

And, now we just have the people working in Brexit affected businesses added to them. Fishers, meat farmers, wine merchants, musicians, lots of small businesses built on the EU market...

Nothing like a bit of levelling down to keep everyone happy...

To add to the list - silver and gold smiths. The UK assay marks are no longer recognised by the EU. Also the antique dealers who come over to Europe with their vans to buy stock. They're going to have real problems with the customs declarations. All those online shops selling old linen sheets and teatowels from France.

The knock on effect from all this is going to be tremendous.

Peasblossom

YES ?

How?

I tried to explain how membership of the EU had brought about a change to seasonal agriculture, but I obviously didn’t do it very well.

If you look at the areas that voted most heavily for Brexit you’ll see that the Eastern Counties were heavily in favour of Brexit. High unemployment in traditional jobs, lack of housing, few educational opportunities, low investment and minimal government support.

Peoples lives were miserable. They saw no benefit from belonging to the EU. They were ignored.

They voted for change.

How do you Brexiteers explain the woman in Hartlepool who voted Tory because under Labour there was one food bank and now there are seven under the Tories. And the man who wouldn't vote Labour anymore because there are no longer any police cells or courts in Hartlepool. Also the 5 men who shared a bed sit, away from their homes, working in the gig economy who voted for "Boris" because he would seem them alright.

I have come to this thread late but I have read it.

My anger is that when the EU did anything positive (work rights, safety, the environment) OUR politicians took the credit.
Anything negative was always the fault of the EU (even when we made different choices to other EU members about implementation).

If you always paint the EU in a negative light it's easy to go on blaming the EU for only tangentially related ills. Life is more complex than this. We were sold a lie as a country and nothing is improving for the disenfranchised.

I have no "stake" in Europe, no second home or close family there so I'm not saying this about me.

Peasblossom

I tried to explain how membership of the EU had brought about a change to seasonal agriculture, but I obviously didn’t do it very well.

If you look at the areas that voted most heavily for Brexit you’ll see that the Eastern Counties were heavily in favour of Brexit. High unemployment in traditional jobs, lack of housing, few educational opportunities, low investment and minimal government support.

Peoples lives were miserable. They saw no benefit from belonging to the EU. They were ignored.

They voted for change.

Ten years or more of Tory austerity - nothing to do with the EU.

Peasblossom

I tried to explain how membership of the EU had brought about a change to seasonal agriculture, but I obviously didn’t do it very well.

If you look at the areas that voted most heavily for Brexit you’ll see that the Eastern Counties were heavily in favour of Brexit. High unemployment in traditional jobs, lack of housing, few educational opportunities, low investment and minimal government support.

Peoples lives were miserable. They saw no benefit from belonging to the EU. They were ignored.

They voted for change.

So, how exactly has brexit improved things for them? Are there now more job. Is there more housing? Are local people filling the gap left by EU workers not picking crops? Are they queuing up to do that work?

I'm assuming you don't know where Peasblossom lives so are in no position to judge whether those who voted leave in her area didn't vote for the reasons she has given

Judging from how knowledgeably she has posted about rural populations and the change to seasonal work, smileless, I think it's fairly easy to guess where she lives.

There are posters who've complained about the difference Brexit will make to them accessing their holiday homes so no need to tell Peasblossom to "get a grip".

Nobody is telling her to get a grip. Just that the EU is not at all likely to be the prime cause of their problems.

I know, the matter of travel to one's holiday home is such a very first world problem, isn't it... I shall continue to complain, though...

Peasblossom

I tried to explain how membership of the EU had brought about a change to seasonal agriculture, but I obviously didn’t do it very well.

If you look at the areas that voted most heavily for Brexit you’ll see that the Eastern Counties were heavily in favour of Brexit. High unemployment in traditional jobs, lack of housing, few educational opportunities, low investment and minimal government support.

Peoples lives were miserable. They saw no benefit from belonging to the EU. They were ignored.

They voted for change.

You still haven't explained how Brexit has changed their lives for the better, peasblossom. That is the question I was asking. Have their lives changed for the better since Brexit?

Smileless2012

you say Peasblossom doesn't know what you think, yet claim to know what many who voted for Brexit thought at the time Alegrias.

I'm assuming you don't know where Peasblossom lives so are in no position to judge whether those who voted leave in her area didn't vote for the reasons she has given.

I knew exactly why I voted for Brexit and it had nothing to do with falsehoods.

There are posters who've complained about the difference Brexit will make to them accessing their holiday homes so no need to tell Peasblossom to "get a grip".

All those people who say "We know what we voted for. How dare you say we didn't know what we voted for." I'm absolutely sure they knew what they were voting for. They wanted their lives to improve.

The area where my family live has some of the highest deprivation scores in the country. I know fine why they voted as they did.

Unfortunately, leaving the EU won't give them what they wanted, although they were told that it will.

And I did use the phrase "get a grip" because thinking that a bunch of middle class people are complaining about their holiday homes is exactly the kind of dis-information that people seem happy to believe over Brexit.

To add to the list - silver and gold smiths. The UK assay marks are no longer recognised by the EU.

Did they recognise them pre-EU?
After all, we have been using assay marks for centuries. Is it something that got overlooked and yet another of the endless blips that are going to take years to sort out?

NotSpaghetti

I have come to this thread late but I have read it.

My anger is that when the EU did anything positive (work rights, safety, the environment) OUR politicians took the credit.
Anything negative was always the fault of the EU (even when we made different choices to other EU members about implementation).

If you always paint the EU in a negative light it's easy to go on blaming the EU for only tangentially related ills. Life is more complex than this. We were sold a lie as a country and nothing is improving for the disenfranchised.

I have no "stake" in Europe, no second home or close family there so I'm not saying this about me.

Good post Notspaghetti.

It’ll be a bit difficult to tell for a few years won’t it, whether people in these regions feel their lives have improved.

And untangling from the effects of Covid isn’t easy but in the immediate term.

The unavailability of cheap itinerant work gangs means that farmers (especially conglomerates for whom shareholder profit is the driving force) are moving from one of crops to all year round farming, meaning that more permanent agricultural jobs are beginning to become available.

Pressure on housing, medical services and social services has eased somewhat as families have moved back into Europe. There was a disproportionate influx that Councils found difficult because the East has always been a low income/high unemployment area with lower central support.

More holiday trade jobs are available to local people, which traditionally removed people from unemployment temporarily. As in agricultural work, cheap intinerant kabour was employed in these as they would accept low wages with board and lodging as a component. They were employed in preference to local Labour that needed a wage that would enable them to pay rent and feed a family.

I don’t know how to explain this to make you understand how desperate and despairing many, many people had become.

The taunt of ‘are they queuing up for the agricultural jobs” shows a lack of understanding of how the system worked. A job for ten or twelve weeks, that includes a bunk in a caravan and food is no good to someone who pays rent on a house throughout the year and needs to feed children as well as themselves.

one off crops

Dinahmo

Peasblossom

I tried to explain how membership of the EU had brought about a change to seasonal agriculture, but I obviously didn’t do it very well.

If you look at the areas that voted most heavily for Brexit you’ll see that the Eastern Counties were heavily in favour of Brexit. High unemployment in traditional jobs, lack of housing, few educational opportunities, low investment and minimal government support.

Peoples lives were miserable. They saw no benefit from belonging to the EU. They were ignored.

They voted for change.

Ten years or more of Tory austerity - nothing to do with the EU.

Dinahmo

Are you aware that the whole of the EU went through years of austerity? It wasn't just our government.

Numerous articles can be found about what happened in the EU during these years. Millions of people protesting. Not just the Tories!

Here's one from the Guardian

www.theguardian.com/business/2012/nov/14/europe-unite-austerity-protests

Callistemon

^To add to the list - silver and gold smiths. The UK assay marks are no longer recognised by the EU.^

Did they recognise them pre-EU?
After all, we have been using assay marks for centuries. Is it something that got overlooked and yet another of the endless blips that are going to take years to sort out?

Recognition of Hallmarks

From 1st January 2021, obligations to recognise equivalent EU hallmarks ended in Great Britain. For the Northern Ireland market EU hallmarks will continue to be recognised.

Any product bearing an equivalent EU mark already on the market before 1st January 2021 will continue to be legal.
Any new stock entering the GB market will require a UK hallmark or Common Control Mark.
Any new stock exported to EU members will require a mark recognised by those countries.
Any new product entering the UK market must either have a UK hallmark or a Common Control Mark (CCM)
As a signatory to the International Hallmarking Convention, the CCM will continue to be recognised in the UK

Gannygangan Yes of course but we're talking about the UK and not those who were affected by austerity measures in their own countries.

Careful, growstuff, you're using words of more than one syllable. A bit much for our self confessed bear of little brain to take in...

Goady stuff MaizieD. Unnecessary.
I thought better of you.
?

Whatever you thought of Brexit- the reality is that the losses are now clear, and massive and even beyond the worst expectations. Combined with Covid - it is a disaster.

Even for those who are happy to wave the nationalistic flag and play Ye Olde Colonial trumpets. FACT.

I know, the matter of travel to one's holiday home is such a very first world problem, isn't it... I shall continue to complain, though...

Why are none of us surprised MaizieD!
?

Actually I don’t think travelling to a holiday home is a problem. I’m not anticipating any such bureaucracy when we travel to ours in Spain in 6 weeks’ time.

I thought the extra tariffs we’re only if family or friends planned to stay at your gaff. Am I wrong?

Oh Kali2 change the record please. You’ve been tub thumping for years! Usually on behalf of others just ‘showing empathy’. Hmm. Stirring things up more like that don’t even affect you!