Birthing People - inclusive or offensive?

Funny how they want instant equality, instant recognition, instant whatever they perceive as their rights, when biological women have had to fight and are still fighting for equality and their rights.
Actually Mollygo a little investigation would reveal that transwomen have always existed and have been subjected to levels of abuse, condemnation and violence few women have experienced, and have had fewer rights. But most of them are standing with women now to improve all our lives.

trisher if I had refused to identify as a pregnant female, and perhaps declared myself to be a pregnant unicorn, I could still have got all the relevant checkups and a bed in the maternity ward, because I was actually a pregnant female (human).

Is there any limit to the idea of accepting that anyone is who they say they are?
Does it apply if I declare myself to be of a particular race?
Or a particular age?
Or to have a particular medical condition?

It's still here

all this pontificating about how people must remain the sex they were born and cannot change gender

People do remain the sex they were born.

If you believe that gender is the same as sex, then people cannot change gender.

If you believe that gender is based on stereotypes about sex, then people can change gender.

Do all women agree about everything, except the trans issue?
Of course they don't.
It is perfectly legitimate for some women not to fall in with an idea just because some other women have that idea.

FarNorth

trisher if I had refused to identify as a pregnant female, and perhaps declared myself to be a pregnant unicorn, I could still have got all the relevant checkups and a bed in the maternity ward, because I was actually a pregnant female (human).

Is there any limit to the idea of accepting that anyone is who they say they are?
Does it apply if I declare myself to be of a particular race?
Or a particular age?
Or to have a particular medical condition?

You aren't living in the USA FarNorth where insurance companies and health providers will do anything to cut care costs if they can. Saying you can't have care because you aren't covered by legislation would be so easy.

I’m just dropping in here, read the early part of the thread, but not all the way through, so apologies if this has been raised before. Did anyone see the trans woman on SkyNews last night? She’s been allowed, the first person ever I believe, to compete in the female weight lifting at the Olympics. Not sure I agree with this. She didn’t trans till she was 35 so had the benefit of all the testosterone for all that time to build much bigger muscle mass. It seems to me she has an unfair advantage. Difficult though. What do you think?

I do wonder why it is quite acceptable for people on this thread to dislike "birthing people" which they are quite entitled to do, but not for other people to dislike terms like "pregnant female"? As I have said before you can be called what you wish but legal documents need to cover all those terms.
I think pregnant unicorn wouldn't be covered Far North it would perhaps have to come under Animal Welfare or Agricultural Provision. So anyone so identifiying in the USA probably wouldn't get a maternity bed.

Agree with you, Maddyone. Female competitors might as well stay home.

Hubbard has taken a biological females place at the Olympics. I wonder what that athlete thinks?

trisher you seek to impose "birthing people" on those that object to it, but are against others being subject to "pregnant female" when they object. Although the document in question is in the USA there are enough instances of this removing of female terms in this country.

You haven't addressed FarNorth's point about sex and gender. I believe the science that sex is fixed and immutable, gender is a social construct and therefore subject to change or variation. What do you think? Do you believe that by declaring yourself to be a man or woman you actually change your sex, or just the gender stereotype you wish to align with. Reinforcing gender stereotypes is such a massive retrograde step.

maddyone

I’m just dropping in here, read the early part of the thread, but not all the way through, so apologies if this has been raised before. Did anyone see the trans woman on SkyNews last night? She’s been allowed, the first person ever I believe, to compete in the female weight lifting at the Olympics. Not sure I agree with this. She didn’t trans till she was 35 so had the benefit of all the testosterone for all that time to build much bigger muscle mass. It seems to me she has an unfair advantage. Difficult though. What do you think?

Maddy - hello, yes I mentioned the Olympics yesterday morning.
I think that it is wrong

Hi Fanny, thanks. I think it’s unfair really too. I realise it’s a difficult question, but with weight lifting, muscle mass is so important. I feel sorry for the other female athletes who are competing in that event.

Maddy - look up Dr Rachel McKinnon, aka Veronica Ivy.

Whereas Caster Semenya was assigned female at birth but has restrictions placed on competition because of her levels of testosterone

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

With regards to Laurel Hubbard, the testosterone level they are allowed is still way above the level permitted for any female athlete, leaving aside the other physical advantages that remain from having been male for so long: longer limbs, stronger bones, more muscle mass etc It's interesting that there aren't any transmen competing in the male class of any of the disciplines at the olympics, I wonder why?

Make the men's category an open one and Laurel could compete in that class, leaving the women's category for female born athletes.

Would (Gavin) Hubbard qualified for the men's weight lifting team?

Rosie51

trisher you seek to impose "birthing people" on those that object to it, but are against others being subject to "pregnant female" when they object. Although the document in question is in the USA there are enough instances of this removing of female terms in this country.

You haven't addressed FarNorth's point about sex and gender. I believe the science that sex is fixed and immutable, gender is a social construct and therefore subject to change or variation. What do you think? Do you believe that by declaring yourself to be a man or woman you actually change your sex, or just the gender stereotype you wish to align with. Reinforcing gender stereotypes is such a massive retrograde step.

I'm not imposing birthing people on anyone simply pointing out that it is an inclusive term which covers all possibilities andthere fore provision for everyone. You argue that other terms can be used and of course they can but with all of them there is a danger that some people will be missed out. You may be called whatever you wish.

You can believe what you like. It doesn't matter if sex is fixed because I am unlikely at any point to want to verify the sex you are matches what you claim to be. I simply accept it.
I do so by looking at your appearance and dress-so your gender. Then again I may be misled. If you look like a woman, claim you are a woman and pass as a woman I am unlikely to insist you strip off so I can check. If you look like a man ditto. The anatomical details are irrelevant.
It's tme women stopped looking at this as a one sided issue. Men want to become women and women want to be men. It's happening, Accept it.

Laurel Hubbard is one of several trans athletes who will be/hoping to be competing in the Olympics this year.

For every transwoman competing, there is a woman who has lost out. For the sake of being progressive and inclusive so many women have their Olympic dreams smashed. Maybe all these women athletes should refuse to compete under this regime.

The positon and testing of women to compete in sports has a horrific and abusive history. Perhaps that's why women are keeping quiet about things. It would be wonderful if there was a simple solution to this very complicated problem, unfortunately there isn't. Attempts to regulate things in the past resulted in some women being subjected to dreadful medical procedures.
It isn't a simple matter for example In fact, high-performing female athletes show a rate of Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome much higher than the general population—which shows 1 in 20,000–50,000, compared with elite athletes’ 1 in 429.
It's fine to question the involvement of transwomen. It's not easy to find a solution that wouldn't also raise the possibility of women being once again subjected to abusive medical treatment.
If you are interested in the real problems en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports

JaneJudge

Would (Gavin) Hubbard qualified for the men's weight lifting team?

I don't know, but I'll hazard a guess at no. It's obviously pure coincidence that male sportsmen transition as their male prowess declines. Or at least that seems to apply to the ones that have made the news. Still finding it hard to find evidence of transmen taking male places in the sporting arena ?

Trisher-why would women be subjected to dreadful medical procedures because a transwoman wishes to compete against them?

It is not at all difficult in the cases of people known to be male who have chosen to be transwomen.
No tests would be required.

I think things will become much more difficult, as hormone treatment of young people becomes more common, along with birth certificates being altered to show the incorrect sex.

"Sex assigned at birth" was a term originally used for people with variations in sexual development, as their sex may not have been clear from observation at birth.
I believe that Caster Semenya does have such a condition.

petunia

Trisher-why would women be subjected to dreadful medical procedures because a transwoman wishes to compete against them?

Because as things become less clearly defined or if accusations were made about women- as has happened in the past some sort of examination might well return. This might result in some women, being forced to undergo surgery. In 2013 four elite female athletes from developing countries were subjected to partial clitoridectomies (a form of female genital mutilation) and gonadectomies (sterilization) after testosterone testing revealed their previously unknown intersex conditions.
If transwomen are to have seperate provision it will be necessary to know theiir full history but there may be people who can't provide that.

Just to add to the debate. St Pauls’s Independent School in London now no longer has a Head Girl, she is how known as Head of School. Where are with heading with all this renaming? It gets worse on a daily basis.

It would be nice to see a girl in a co-ed school called Head of School!