Birthing People - inclusive or offensive?

Because as things become less clearly defined or if accusations were made about women- as has happened in the past some sort of examination might well return.
But why would it matter enough to examine people, unless there were an inherent advantage for a male-born person to compete against women? How does it work now? Is there any sort of test to determine the sex of athletes? By your criteria all men would need to do would be to wear a skirt and 'present as a woman' (whatever that means). Is that enough?

Your argument seems to be that either women have a choice - they either compete against males (and give up on a chance of success), or have intrusive examinations? And people wonder why feminists are so worked up about trans rights?

Surely a more proportionate response would be to protect female athletes from the 'developing countries' - presumably those in first world countries would not be subject to extreme surgical procedures, and this is not sanctioned by any international athletics organisations? Appalling though that practice is, it is not the norm to make policy for the rest of the world based on actions that happen under abusive regimes.

If a man wants to change gender, and live 'as a woman', that is up to him IMO, and whatever you say I am not phobic about it. If a man says he is a woman and expects to win awards and prizes (and money) because he has a male body but is competing against people with female bodies, that is a different matter.

trisher why do you believe that every man who claims to be a woman, is actually a woman?
Why do you see no possible drawbacks to this idea?

"Did a Male Rapist Who Identifies as Female Transfer to a Women’s Jail and Assault Female Inmates?
Transgender prisoner Karen White (formerly Stephen Wood) of West Yorkshire, England, who confessed to committing multiple rapes as a man, sexually assaulted female inmates after being transferred to a women's jail."

www.snopes.com/fact-check/male-rapist-transfer-womens-jail/

The women you have mentioned Trisha seem to have some sort of genetic anomaly which means their sex is not easy to determine. I don't have the answer for that. Those cases are difficult to deal with, but the athletes such as Laurel Hubbard and the other potential transwoman entrants are open about their sex. It is these individuals that cause the issue

Laurel Hubbard is a controversial entrant. We don't need to know what is in Laurel's underwear, it is clear that her physique has all the benefits of an adult male and years of competing along side other men. Biological women have and will continue to loose out if men are allowed to enter women's competitions. Hardly sporting is it. It could be the beginning of the end of women's sport.

Doodledogif you can quote where on this thread I have provided criteria saying all men would need to do would be to wear a skirt and 'present as a woman In every day life I am qute prepared to accept people who present as female as women, however the issue of sport isn't and has never been simple.
I believe there are sports people who would like to see categories introduced which are not solely dependent upon sex. I'm not sure if that would work or even how.
My argument is by the way that I cannot see any way of properly regulating this issue wihout resorting to the intrusive methods used in the past. It would be nice to think it will just be one transwoman involved but I suspect there will be many more.

And I think many more people will be accused of being a trans women.

trisher

*Doodledog*if you can quote where on this thread I have provided criteria saying all men would need to do would be to wear a skirt and 'present as a woman In every day life I am qute prepared to accept people who present as female as women, however the issue of sport isn't and has never been simple.
I believe there are sports people who would like to see categories introduced which are not solely dependent upon sex. I'm not sure if that would work or even how.
My argument is by the way that I cannot see any way of properly regulating this issue wihout resorting to the intrusive methods used in the past. It would be nice to think it will just be one transwoman involved but I suspect there will be many more.

^You can believe what you like. It doesn't matter if sex is fixed because I am unlikely at any point to want to verify the sex you are matches what you claim to be. I simply accept it.
I do so by looking at your appearance and dress-so your gender. Then again I may be misled. If you look like a woman, claim you are a woman and pass as a woman I am unlikely to insist you strip off so I can check. If you look like a man ditto. The anatomical details are irrelevant.
It's tme women stopped looking at this as a one sided issue. Men want to become women and women want to be men. It's happening, Accept it.^

That posted too soon, but is a direct quote from one of your earlier posts on this thread.

The language we use creates the reality we live within. If the use of gender neutral language, gender inclusive language is considered the way forward then not only the words women mothers female will be erased, but grandmothers and girls. And then of course men, boys, fathers grandfathers must follow. And any word with a male default bias - Humans humanity. So why would there be any need to “transition” trans into what ? we would all be mere It’s or things or perhaps a new word as yet not in use. There would be No differentiation whatsoever. Except science shows us that each person has either XY or XX chromosomes in everyone of the trillions of cells in our bodies and this is an immutable fact. And no amount of ‘feeling like’ or ‘choosing to identify as’ something other can alter this basic premise. So which will triumph language or science

Doodledog that quote (as you well know) refers to everyday life when you are unlikely to know if the person standing next to you is a transwoman or just someone who happens to look a bit masculine. It actually demeans you to try to us it as an example of my views on transwomen competing in high levels of sport where there are so many problems and where women have faced so many difficulties to do with their appearance for many years. It may seem simple to some-""ban the transwoman" but it will become so much more complicated as more people are involved. Completely seperate. events are not in my opinion something to be desired -they smack too much of apartheid.
This is a very interesting blog which really makes you think
blogs.lse.ac.uk/gender/2020/12/07/straddling-the-line-between-gender-and-sex-how-racism-misogyny-and-transphobia-intertwine-to-define-notions-of-womanhood-in-the-world-of-elite-sports/

Don't high level athletes have to have blood tests to check for drug use?
Couldn't their sex be determined from those also?

FarNorth they test for testosterone levels, but it is incredibly complicated and levels vary at different times. Some women have conditions which cause their levels to be unnaturally high, some of them lower their level using medication. www.ese-hormones.org/media/1882/femaleathletes_hirschberg_pr_final.pdf
Men of course don't get tested.

From what I've read, including in your link, females, even with high testosterone, do not have anywhere near the levels that transwomen have as their lowest level.

Your link makes clear that testosterone is not the whole story.

It should be possible to enable females to compete while excluding males, if a little more sensible thought is given to it.

The answer is not just to let in men who say they are women - because you can be sure that that will be the next demand.
It will be claimed that athletes should not be required to take testosterone-lowering treatment in order to compete.

Men of course don't get tested.

Well of course they do get tested for drug use, but their testosterone levels can vary from 7.7-29.4 nmol/L in healthy males. If they transition to women they are allowed a level (10 nmol/L) twice the maximum allowed for their female competitors (5nmol/L). So they allow transwomen athletes to have a testosterone level compatible with a healthy male.

The second paragraph of your link illustrates exactly why sports need to be sex segregated not gender segregated. It is hard on women with medical conditions that elevate their levels above the permitted range, and more research is needed to assess their situation, but their competitors need to have a fair chance too. Participation in elite sport is not a right, ask the female weightlifter who lost her place to Laurel Hubbard, after years of hard work and training.

The Guardian has an article today about the transwomen issue in sport.

www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/jun/22/by-conflating-gender-and-sex-we-undermine-sporting-competition?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

SueDonim thanks for that link. What a balanced reasonable article, and not just because she agrees with me to have an open class and a female sex-based class.

Yes SueDonim the article in the Guardian shows clarity and logic. My hormones are fast waning, but I’m no less a woman because of that fact and I always will be. The same with testosterone. We are not defined by our hormones. As George Orwell said in 1984 - they want us to believe 2+2 = 5.

It's an interesting if rather simplistic article. Women in sport are already experiencing high levels of examination and judgement about what they are permitted or not permitted to be. This has resulted in some women being banned from taking part unless they subject themselves to unnecessary medical intervention. You may think it's a simple matter of ban the transwoman, but a significant number of women involved in high-level sport are intersex. Will you ban them as well? One woman has already attempted suicide because she was stripped of a medal when she failed a gender test. It may seem simple but it really isn't.

The Moral Maze on Radio 4 this evening is a discussion about transwomen in sport.
Thought that some may be interested

Talking about transwomen in sport now on Woman's Hour

trisher that woman will not have failed a gender test, of which aren't we informed there are over 100, she will have failed a sex test, which we know there are only two. People with DSDs, most hate the term intersex and find it insulting, can still be reliably allocated to one of the two sexes. There is no third sex.

In football a trans man or woman has to pass certain tests and have a doctor’s endorsement before they are permitted to play. Sounds good? In actuality it may not be. If a man does not transition until he is well passed puberty then he will have the proportions of a man. For example our women’s football team were playing another women’s team when our players came to me complaining the other team’s goal keeper was a man. I poo pooed it until this GK came to ask me for something and absolutely towered above me and had giant hands. Our players were terrified. I complained to the FA but she passed the FA’s transition rules so was a permitted player.
In this case it gave an unfair advantage, but that isn’t always so.

Some LGBTQ+ have set up their own teams but mostly on a friendly basis so if you want to play at a serious level you need to join a more professional male or female team. This is where you have the problem with trans people. Having said that if a trans woman turned up, wanted to play and had good football skills ( albeit learnt with a Premier League Academy) why wouldn’t you sign them? Trans do have to tell you they are trans which no one else has to.

We want to be inclusive but is it fair in this instance?

Rosie51

trisher that woman will not have failed a gender test, of which aren't we informed there are over 100, she will have failed a sex test, which we know there are only two. People with DSDs, most hate the term intersex and find it insulting, can still be reliably allocated to one of the two sexes. There is no third sex.

Rosie51 in the article the test is defined as a gender test. As the woman was already designated as female at birth I don't think her sex could be changed could it? I believe that's what many on here have asserted.
The incidence of women with the health condition described s intersex is very high in ompetetive sport . Perhaps they need to have their own designated events as well???? You wonder where it will stop.

trisher and that's the very problem, an article uses gender when they mean sex. It suits some agendas to conflate the two. For a very few people their sex will have been "misread" at birth. There are scientific procedures that can accurately decide which of the two sexes any person should be. In the past ambiguous genitalia was often assigned female, and it is hard for those who have been wrongly assigned, but one unfairness does not justify unfairness to many others. But all that aside, those individuals' inclusion or non inclusion in sport is irrelevant to transwomen being permitted to partake in female sports. Transwomen and people with DSDs are not even remotely the same class. Transwomen have changed their gender from men to women, they have not magically changed their sex from male to female.

To conflate transgender and intersex people is disingenuous.

I don't think I am "conflating" intersex and transgender people I am pointing out that women's sport regulation has been and continues to be a problem. That this regulation has led to real distress for women who have been subjected to all sorts of indignities. And that what is regarded as the'norm' in terms of female physical development isn't always the sort of form some female athletes have. The article I put a link to thinks this is closely involved with racism. I have no idea if this is true but I found the statement about testing women and the physical indignities involved very concerning.