A winter of very expensive heating and little food?

Riverwalk

vegansrock

Another question - why is there a CO2 shortage in the U.K. and not in the EU?

Did I hear correctly yesterday that production of CO2 in the UK is in the hands of only two companies and because of the high cost of gas it wasn't viable for them to continue?

Seems extraordinary - unless I'm imagining that!

Large fertilizer plants produce a lot of CO2 as a byproduct this is captured and used by other industries. High gas prices has made fertilizer production uneconomic so no CO2.

Katie59

Far too much gloom and doom about food shortages, it only pre packed food that is going to be affected by CO2 shortages.
Ironically because less can be pre packed prices of fresh and. frozen food are likely to fall, crops and animals are growing and will be processed mostly as usual.
As for turkeys farmers have reduced the numbers they are keeping already because of labour shortage for processing, I’m planning to have pork, so no worries there.

Is that right, aye?

Don't set your heart on that pork.

www.itv.com/news/2021-09-20/co2-crisis-may-result-in-the-culling-of-perfectly-healthy-pigs

Alegrias1

Katie59

Far too much gloom and doom about food shortages, it only pre packed food that is going to be affected by CO2 shortages.
Ironically because less can be pre packed prices of fresh and. frozen food are likely to fall, crops and animals are growing and will be processed mostly as usual.
As for turkeys farmers have reduced the numbers they are keeping already because of labour shortage for processing, I’m planning to have pork, so no worries there.

Is that right, aye?

Don't set your heart on that pork.

??

It does all seem very upside down at the moment. There's no shortage of luxury Christmas hampers and ironically I have just ordered one with European delicacies. That doesnt seem very fair.
I heard that too about co2 production Riverwalk.

vegansrock

What are our energy prices the highest in Europe? Privatisation has given the green light to companies to rip us off.

The value of sterling is still fairly low that’s part of the reason, with dozens of companies trying to buy energy creates its own market demand with suppliers. So many energy sellers also makes it very inefficient, so much wasted effort as customers chase the best price, a national regulated price would be far more efficient.

vegansrock

Why did Johnson claim he would scrap VAT on fuel prices and he hasn’t done so? Another promise he has made no effort to fulfil.

I posted that question a couple of days ago vegansrock and was told that the cost of Covid had prevented him from keeping his promise. Poor old Johnson and Gove, I'm sure they fully intended to keep that promise just like all the others....then Covid came and compromised their unimpeachable integrity.

Some people will find any excuse for every broken promise to excuse the lying charlatans. Dozens of broken promises individually excused via the medium of pure fantasy by stubborn people too blinkered to make a connection and see a pattern forming.

Katie59

vegansrock

What are our energy prices the highest in Europe? Privatisation has given the green light to companies to rip us off.

The value of sterling is still fairly low that’s part of the reason, with dozens of companies trying to buy energy creates its own market demand with suppliers. So many energy sellers also makes it very inefficient, so much wasted effort as customers chase the best price, a national regulated price would be far more efficient.

Vegansrock is right, though. Nationalising energy supply would cut out the profit element in the cost to the consumer. Creating a 'market' for energy was always a deeply stupid idea.

Katie59

Far too much gloom and doom about food shortages, it only pre packed food that is going to be affected by CO2 shortages.
Ironically because less can be pre packed prices of fresh and. frozen food are likely to fall, crops and animals are growing and will be processed mostly as usual.
As for turkeys farmers have reduced the numbers they are keeping already because of labour shortage for processing, I’m planning to have pork, so no worries there.

No, it isn't only pre-packed food which is threatened. Most meat, including pork, will be affected because CO2 is used in the slaughter process.

I don't know how you reckon that the price of fresh and frozen food will fall. I've just done a Tesco online order and about half of the frozen veg I wanted to order isn't even available. The choice of lettuce was limited too. I grow most of my own over the summer, but I've come to the end of my season, so needed to buy some.

I don't buy much processed food and the fresh and frozen food is definitely affected by something. It's not just availability, but prices have risen on many of my staples.

Alegrias1

www.itv.com/news/2021-09-20/co2-crisis-may-result-in-the-culling-of-perfectly-healthy-pigs

Doubtless there will be a well publicized threat but before CO2 a captive bolt or electro stunning was used, slaughterhouses will just revert to old practice.

If pigs are dumped they have to be killed first, how do you imagine that is going to be done more humanely.

I've no idea how they kill pigs, now or in the past. However the pig farmer on the ITV news last night who was in tears, he probably has an idea. I don't expect there will be much about it that is humane, and I don't expect they'll be set free to gambol in the fields either.

The point is that the farms themselves will have to cull their own animals, probably using captive bolts. The abattoirs won't take them. If farms can't sell their animals, they'll stop breeding them.

You used to need to hold a Home Office licence before you could slaughter animals on the farm. I doubt that has changed so it’s not as simple as farmers culling their own animals. You would need professional butchery skills as well to sell any meat, plus there would be health and safety regulations to meet.

One of the reasons are energy prices are the highest in Europe is because we have stopped mining coal because of CO2 emissions. Germany are still using their own coal as are Poland who also export to us. It’s a crazy scary world we live in.

Our Nat are

Our not are - finally.

21:24Alegrias1

Maudi

20:35PippaZ

Maudi

I'm pleased there is no one to kill the turkey, veggie Christmas for me and my family. I'm sure no one will starve, it might do some people good to lose a few pounds and think twice about what they are eating.

You are really being very insulting to many people. Don't you realise that?

*Faux outrage on your part me thinks. ?

Egregious lack of empathy. Or misguided attempt to be provocative. Not sure which.

How strange it seems you and PippaZ take turns posting. Who knew that if you are vegetarian and pleased thousands of turkey's will be spared this Christmas you would be judged as having no empathy. Or is it perhaps that I don't share your agenda. ?

All the news outlets have interviews with pig farmers and their association saying that they will have to kill their animals on the farm, that they'll have to do it themselves and that the animals will no longer be suitable for the food chain.

All bets are off, it seems.

Although, I think the government will bail out the 2 big fertiliser companies in time and the CO2 will start being produced again.

growstuff

The point is that the farms themselves will have to cull their own animals, probably using captive bolts. The abattoirs won't take them. If farms can't sell their animals, they'll stop breeding them.

Exactly this happened several years back to a pig farmer friend in Brittany, (due to new regs he could no longer afford to run his business). Another local farmer came to do the slaughtering and freezers in the village were crammed with porc. No questions were asked about the method.
Our friend now runs a very successful enterprise where he sells ultrasound machines over SW France so pig farmers can check how many piglets will be produced at a time and can adapt to supply and demand.

How strange it seems you and PippaZ take turns posting. Who knew that if you are vegetarian and pleased thousands of turkey's will be spared this Christmas you would be judged as having no empathy. Or is it perhaps that I don't share your agenda. ?

I'm vegetarian too. Have been for 35 years.

If you think this means the turkeys are being spared and will now live happy lives until they die of old age, I'm going to have to disabuse you of that idea. See above. Pigs, turkeys... same outcome.

25Avalon

You used to need to hold a Home Office licence before you could slaughter animals on the farm. I doubt that has changed so it’s not as simple as farmers culling their own animals. You would need professional butchery skills as well to sell any meat, plus there would be health and safety regulations to meet.

That's why they can't sell it.

I thought that too about the ‘spared’ turkeys.
They’ll probably be burnt, like during the horrendous foot and mouth business

I'm not a vegetarian. In my youth, the men in my family shot for the pot and we have farming in our history. I was brought up to see animals as part of the cycle of life. To be well looked after and the humanely killed to go into the food chain.

I imagine some farmers will not be able to come back from any mass cull of their animals - not just because of the capital they would need but because it breaks them to see what they have to do for no purpose.

Hopefully, it won't happen. But this is another group in our country that has been at the mercy of the unpreparedness of this 11 year-old government.

I'm going to comment PippaZ although we might get accused of being a double act

My vegetarianism is a personal choice and I'd never dream of criticising someone who wasn't veggie. DH isn't veggie! I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with people who eat meat or the farmers who provide it.

There is a shortage of Labour in slaughterhouses because of Brexit, most of the workers were East European, most of the vets Spanish so that was slowing up the killing anyway without the double whammy of the CO2 shortage. I bet the government do bail out the fertiliser companies unlike the energy companies they are allowing to fail. The big businesses will be supported but not the smaller ones.