Gransnet forums

News & politics

Gina Miller the woman who tried to stop Brexit starting new party called 'True and Fair' 🤔

(111 Posts)
Maudi Mon 27-Sep-21 12:30:46

Nothing true and fair about Gina Miller who tried to stop the democratic Brexit vote. What do you think?

Kali2 Mon 27-Sep-21 15:39:19

Urmstongran

I’d rather our FPTP voting than PR. Coalitions of groups just seem to produce more hot air (ahem, discussions) and decision making becomes very problematic for the poor electorate!

It depends on the kind of PR. Your comment applies to Italy, but not France and Germany.

How can a system which aleniates a massive proportion of the population, just because of where they live, be democratic. See saw, extreme politics has been disastrous for this country in the past 75 years. No wonder so many people don't vote. I have voted on principle every single time- knowing full well, before I cast my vote, that it would go straight in the bin. Democracy did you say?

Kali2 Mon 27-Sep-21 15:41:10

Lincslass

Kali2

What was Democratic about Brexit?

A Referendum.

Sadly, that has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt that this Referendum was not won fairly or democratically. If you have not accepted that, despite all the evidence - then what can I say.

silverlining48 Mon 27-Sep-21 15:48:22

Almost worse than a joke, Europe pities us.

Yes Germany usually have a coalition government, it’s how their system works, and it does work, very well. If only...

Lincslass Mon 27-Sep-21 15:56:48

Kali2

Urmstongran

I’d rather our FPTP voting than PR. Coalitions of groups just seem to produce more hot air (ahem, discussions) and decision making becomes very problematic for the poor electorate!

It depends on the kind of PR. Your comment applies to Italy, but not France and Germany.

How can a system which aleniates a massive proportion of the population, just because of where they live, be democratic. See saw, extreme politics has been disastrous for this country in the past 75 years. No wonder so many people don't vote. I have voted on principle every single time- knowing full well, before I cast my vote, that it would go straight in the bin. Democracy did you say?

According to German family the close election result yesterday will become very messy 206 seats to Scholz SPD, but apparently Laschet with 196 won’t give up, and will fight to retain some power for the CDU/ CSU. So not always an amicable solution.

LadyGracie Mon 27-Sep-21 15:59:36

Proves my point.

Kali2 Mon 27-Sep-21 16:04:16

At the end of the day, they will have to work together if the results are so close.

silverlining48 Mon 27-Sep-21 16:04:30

As has been said every time I have voted my vote does not count because it’s virtually impossible to overturn the incumbent MP.
Germany has a different system which means literally yards of voting slips to be completed by each voter. Result is very tight but it’s only day 1 post election, and will take a while before things finally settle.

Lincslass Mon 27-Sep-21 16:19:45

Kali2

Lincslass

Kali2

What was Democratic about Brexit?

A Referendum.

Sadly, that has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt that this Referendum was not won fairly or democratically. If you have not accepted that, despite all the evidence - then what can I say.

Rather read this unbiased view
ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/07/25/stephen-tierney-was-the-brexit-referendum-democratic/

Katie59 Mon 27-Sep-21 16:39:41

If the truth had been told, and the realities accepted there is no way that the referendum would have been won. As it was lies and blind optimism won, so we just suffer the consequences, no way back.

Dinahmo Mon 27-Sep-21 16:46:06

Kali2

At the end of the day, they will have to work together if the results are so close.

With a bit of luck the Greens will play a large part in German decision making

JaneJudge Mon 27-Sep-21 16:46:38

not another woman to slag off confused Jesus Christ

Dinahmo Mon 27-Sep-21 16:49:17

Lincslass Stephen Tierney may be unbiased but that article was written in July 2016, one month after the vote and long before all the Leave shenanigans came to light. I don't think that it has much bearing now.

CoolCoco Mon 27-Sep-21 16:57:02

Angela Merkel has been at the helm in Germany for 13 years, and whatever you think of her politics, she has earned respect amongst world leaders. Unlike the UK Germany kept is manufacturing base - they make their own cars, tractors, fridges , washing machine, heavy machinery etc which many other countries want to buy. They have a world class health system, with much more of the country's GDP being spent on health and social care than the UK. Pensions are higher too. It is far more stable politically and economically prosperous and productive than the UK. Plus guess what - its in the EU and had PR.

Liveinnan Mon 27-Sep-21 17:06:53

Here here LadyGracie.

I can’t see how the Brexit referendum was flawed, everyone entitled to vote had their chance to decide the outcome and the majority get what they want implemented. What is undemocratic about that?

What Donald Trump attempted in the USA that’s undemocratic.

MaizieD Mon 27-Sep-21 17:25:44

Katie59

If the truth had been told, and the realities accepted there is no way that the referendum would have been won. As it was lies and blind optimism won, so we just suffer the consequences, no way back.

You forgot about the illegal overspending...

MaizieD Mon 27-Sep-21 17:29:24

Liveinnan

Here here LadyGracie.

I can’t see how the Brexit referendum was flawed, everyone entitled to vote had their chance to decide the outcome and the majority get what they want implemented. What is undemocratic about that?

What Donald Trump attempted in the USA that’s undemocratic.

Just a little something about the Leave campaigns breaking electoral law. You know, the laws that are meant to ensure that electoral campaigns (and referendums) are run fairly.

As someone said earlier, had the referendum been mandatory rather than advisory it would have been declared void (and rerun...)

lemongrove Mon 27-Sep-21 17:29:59

LadyGracie

I think you'll find the pandemic has had a big influence on what is happening now.
We had a democratic referendum on Brexit.
I think you'll find that the staunch remainers are the undemocratic ones in our society.

True.
Although it must be remembered that most Remainers do
Accept the outcome of the referendum and are prepared to just get on with it.Just a few that seem to stay bitter that we have left the EU.

railman since you are having a go at referendums, perhaps you have forgotten that we had one to go into the EU in the fir

lemongrove Mon 27-Sep-21 17:30:25

Ooops, in the first place.

lemongrove Mon 27-Sep-21 17:31:56

Just to add, Gina Miller is wasting her time and money.

Kali2 Mon 27-Sep-21 17:40:18

lemongrove ''Although it must be remembered that most Remainers do
Accept the outcome of the referendum '' would you care to provide evidence for this? I know many remainers who accepted the outcome, but now have changed their mind. I also know very many Brexiters who now have changed their mind, realise they were duped and lied to - and want to influence the outcome, for a softer type of Brexit- as a hard Brexit is clearly a disaster for too many.

Remember that the Brexit Referendum was just a 'yes' or 'no' option- and no-one, but no-one, had any idea what kind of Brexit it would be, what form it would take, or indeed what the consequences will be.

Demographics have changed too. I dare you to state, unequivocably, that a second vote would bring the same result now. Could you swear to this, hand on your heart?

lemongrove Mon 27-Sep-21 17:59:30

Nobody knew what the first referendum result would be, never mind a second one!
How exactly am I supposed to provide evidence? All I can say is that quite a few GNers who voted to Remain have stated that they accepted the outcome, and Remainers in my family and friends also accept it.
It’s only on social media that there is all the anger and bitterness six years later.

Kali2 Mon 27-Sep-21 18:04:24

Anecdotal does not cut the mustard.

So let's just have a Second Vote now- that will sort it out. Easy peasy.

lemongrove Mon 27-Sep-21 18:06:39

🤣🤣🤣
No.

Kali2 Mon 27-Sep-21 18:10:36

I wonder why you are not keen? hmmmmmm

And still, after all this time- we have NO idea what kind of Brexit we will have, large sections have not been implemented, and the consequences not hit yet - petrol crisis or not.

So yes, no wonder.

But the doodoo is truly hitting the fan, and the HGV drivers and petrol crisis will lead to a massive series of very unpleasant realities hitting all- Remainers, Leavers, and everything in between. and that is not scare mongering.

Bodach Mon 27-Sep-21 18:11:29

"So let's just have a Second Vote now- that will sort it out. Easy peasy."
Kali2: You're not, by any chance, Nicola Sturgeon? wink