The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

Petera

nightowl

Franbern I am very frightened by people’s responses to those who don’t have the vaccine. I think we are seeing how easily people can take up extremely authoritarian positions and history tells us where this can lead. There have always been diseases with public health aspects but I am not aware that there has ever been a suggestion of compulsory vaccination ‘to protect others’ or sanctions for non-compliance. This is not a world I want to live in.

There have been, at least in other countries, serious disincentives. We lived in Norway many years ago and my daughter would not have been able to attend school without a TB vaccination.

I think the sanctions of losing one’s job and being locked down in one’s home take this a step further Petera

How is it possible to prove conclusively that blood clots and other health problems which some people will inevitably have are, without doubt, caused by the covid vaccine?

Coincidences happen all the time and with millions of people vaccinated it’s inevitable that some will have certain symptoms in the days following their vaccination, symptoms and illnesses which would have appeared anyway.

I’m just thinking of those people who still claim that the flu jab gave them flu, without realising that they were obviously incubating it when they had their vaccination.

On a slightly more positive note, it said on the news last night that people are still coming forward for their first vaccination, and that the numbers had increased since the Omicron news, so it is a diminishing pool of unvaccinated. I think it said 300,000 in the last week, although I can’t find that referenced anywhere.

There have been so many attempts to ‘educate’ or ‘encourage’ people who refuse to be vaccinated, with limited success. How much longer do we make the excuse that they need such tactics? Would a requirement for proof of vaccination, or proof of medical inability to be vaccinated, plus proof of a negative test, as a condition of entry to pubs, restaurants, nightclubs, concerts, indoor sports events etc be more likely to succeed? I appreciate the difficulties in checking at the door and the opportunities for fraudsters, but it was something the government was considering in the summer and then dropped, wrongly IMO.

I wish people would be more precise when they say NHS treatment is free. It isn't. All taxpayers pay for it. It's only free at the 'face' of treatment.

And NHS dental treatment isn't even that except for children.

In other health systems, e.g. in mainland European countries, people are much more aware of medical costs because they have designated insurance/tax payments, etc. Perhaps this isn't a bad idea.

Hetty58

Alegrias1, criminalise - no, of course not - but persuade them, limit their choices, make their lives difficult, why not?

I don’t agree with making life more difficult. Why not?

In the 1930s in Sweden women could only have an abortion if they agreed to be sterilised. The Jewish people have suffered from being ‘othered’ for hundreds of years. The poor in England could only be treated in hospitals (pre NHS) if they were consider to be ‘the deserving poor’.

This is not a path for a so called civilised society to tread.

Ahem!

Many of our ailments today are caused by lifestyle eg. Type 2 diabetes

Not always!

I've had T2 diabetes since my mid 30s and have never been overweight and have always had a reasonably healthy lifestyle.

Should I be charged for treatment because many people with T2 diabetes have an unhealthy lifestyle?

I do not agree with charging people for conditions for which they could possibly be responsible.

Sago

ayse Nobody wants to acknowledge an alternative point of view.

The reality is we are all part of a huge medical trial and we have zero come back if anything goes wrong.

I am by the way double vaccinated.

I am reluctant to have my third.

I was reluctant to have the booster but as I have a minor lung condition (too much smoking and lung damage as a child) I went ahead. I don’t want to be hospitalised if I can avoid it. I also wanted to protect my children from the immense stress and worry when an older relative is sick.

Nobody can know if there are any long term side effects from these vaccines. We’ve only had them for a year!

Anti vaxxers have their reasons and while some of these reasons are bonkers, others are not. For example, the experience of the poster upthread whose relative developed blood clots post vaccine will affect the decisions of that family about whether to be vaccinated or not. The choice to be vaccinated by consent must remain but I hope that the number who choose not to will be small.
If it is proved to be necessary for vaccinations to be compulsory for certain jobs or travel etc then so be it. That will be restriction enough for unvaccinated people.

Growstuff

I know not all those with T2 diabetes have a lifestyle challenge. No offence was intended. That’s the trouble with generalisations, they are a catch all.

I agree that nobody should be charged at the point of medical care. Most of us pay of have paid our taxes and some choose to pay additionally for private treatment.

A chap we know, who runs a maintenance company, was terrified of getting Covid, and kept his kids off school even when they should have been in, has caught Covid and is feeling dreadfully ill. He hadn’t had the jabs. When asked why not he replied that he hadn’t had time! Beggars belief! just hope he doesn’t end up in hospital.

ayse

Growstuff

I know not all those with T2 diabetes have a lifestyle challenge. No offence was intended. That’s the trouble with generalisations, they are a catch all.

I agree that nobody should be charged at the point of medical care. Most of us pay of have paid our taxes and some choose to pay additionally for private treatment.

I'm not offended, but I have lost count of the number of times I've read that T2 is caused by an unhealthy lifestyle. It wasn't in my case and I know others in the same situation. I wish I did know what caused it and that people wouldn't generalise.

Urmstongran, no, not inducements - disincentives is the way to go for the unvaccinated.

Growstuff

Interested to find out more about T2. Just skimmed an interesting article www.diabetes.co.uk/causes-of-type2-diabetes.html

I’m sure you know this already but I’ve posted the link in case others are interested.

Hetty58

Urmstongran, no, not inducements - disincentives is the way to go for the unvaccinated.

With respect Hetty58, that is your opinion. It's not mine.

FWIW, I don't think inducements are the way either. Treating adults like children who need to be punished or rewarded is not the action of a civilised society.

ayse

Growstuff

Interested to find out more about T2. Just skimmed an interesting article www.diabetes.co.uk/causes-of-type2-diabetes.html

I’m sure you know this already but I’ve posted the link in case others are interested.

I don't have any of the most common risk factors. It's possible that I carry some kind of mutated gene, although I don't have a family history. Chronic stress could have been a factor, but it hasn't been that well researched.

My point really is that I don't think people should be fined/charged for treatment, even if many of those with the same condition are partly responsible. Even though I'm passionate about vaccines, I don't agree that people should be denied treatment or charged for it.

The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

Should they be condemned?
Should we punish people because the rest of society believes they are foolish?
If the majority are fully vaccinated should we worry about those who are not for whatever reason?
If the vaccines are effective in preventing the disease or reducing its effects why are the fully vaccinated so angry with those who choose not to be?
The fully vaccinated should be protected.

Unfortunately that is not always the case. A local healthy, double vaccinated 50 year old has just died from Covid. She hadn't been overseas.

How many people caught Covid before the vaccinations were available and have as much, if not more, immunity than a vaccinated person?

I have been vaccinated but I think there are still more questions than answers.

Brilliant picture Whitewave. I do hope any anti vaxxers on here take note, although apart from two or three, I think we’re all pretty much in agreement. Perhaps this picture should be used by the government and displayed on billboards.
I don’t think I needed all that when I was in hospital, but I certainly required a lot of it. Oxygen for twelve days and approximately 8/9 different drugs.

Another question:

Why did a healthy 50 year old double vaccinated woman die from Covid if the vaccines are effective?
Why did a man of similar age, ill and in hospital for another reason, caught Covid in hospital, have no symptoms?

Surely that is just the way things turn out?
I have read that they are looking at genetic reasons for the disparity.
At the same time, why did my daughter's cancer kill her when others have lived?
Some things just are, because they are.

It's all the more reason not to take chances, as far as I'm concerned, and I'd rather others didnt take the chance of infecting me.

I have read that they are looking at genetic reasons for the disparity.

Yes, that is most probably why and there will be a lot of research carried out in future to work out why, which, how.
We know so much more now about genetic predispositions to disease.

I hope it means the world will be better prepared next time something similar to this happens because there will be a next time.

I am another who can't understand the logic of anti-vaxxers - however, I don't believe they should either be denied or charged for NHS treatment if they catch the virus.

If NHS treatment becomes reliant on people observing certain criteria where could it lead - become vegetarian or don't get treated, don't smoke or don't get treated, don't drink or don't get treated or even vote for a certain party or don't get treated!

Like others, I too know people who happily use botox , which of course is a toxin, yet refuse to have the vaccine!

There is a knock on affect that means any treatment for others is at risk of being postponed until they are seriously ill.

I don't agree with withholding treatment either, but as we live in a society which says where you can and cannot smoke as it effects other people, I don't see that making restrictions on the unvaccinated is any different.